Quality of 3.8L V6 Components
11-30-2010, 06:39 AM
#11
JK Enthusiast
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I posted this on another thread but seems to apply here:
Just had an exchange with a Chrysler Mechanic on a question/answer website:
expert :
hello and welcome to XXXXXXX. the engine was not redesigned for 5w20, chrysler just recommends 5w20 in all of its engines other then the 4.0l,3.5l and the 2.4 in the pt cruisers.
expert :
the reason that they have changed over to 5w20 is that they are adding variable valve timing to all of there engines.
expert :
the 5w20 is necessary in the engines with variable valve timing because the pcm monitors when the change takes place and times how long it takes, miliseconds, and if it takes longer then it should, it will set a fault in the computer.
expert:
make sure you use the recommend oil because they can deny warranty claims if you use the wrong oil viscosity
angermgmt :
So the software is calibrated to the 5W20 viscosity/resistance...
angermgmt :
Also any difference the the 3.8 from '07 to '11?
expert :
its not that it is calibrated to it, its that they watch for the valve timing to change and that had to happen in a certain time which is miliseconds, im not certain that they are even putting that on the 3.8 l but that is why they came out with 5w20 oil that and the 5.7l hemi with mds.
expert :
i would have to do some research on the 2011 3.8 there are no differences that im aware of.
angermgmt :
It would be important to know if that system was on the 3.8, hence a very broad discussion on this topic on the other forum. Arguement being this engine was iron clad in the minivans with the 5W30, now there are at least perceived issues with it and using 5W20.
expert :
i just researched the engine on chrysler and they have not added the variable valve timing to the 3.8l yet and the 3.8 l does use a cast iron block, even in the 2011's
angermgmt :
Ok well why then change 5W30 to 5W20 on an unchanged and proven engine design? Answer that and I think we're done...
expert :
5w20 is a synthetic blend and is a better oil in my opinion, i have an 03 minivan with a 3.3l and have switch over to 5w20 in it as well. being that 5w20 is semi synthetic it has less friction then 5w30.
angermgmt :
Thanks, looks like it's a six here and a half a dozen there issue. I'll lean to keeping my warranty.
Needless to say, no legitimate reason. If I didnt have the warranty I'd probably switch to full syn 5W30. IMHO
Just had an exchange with a Chrysler Mechanic on a question/answer website:
expert :
hello and welcome to XXXXXXX. the engine was not redesigned for 5w20, chrysler just recommends 5w20 in all of its engines other then the 4.0l,3.5l and the 2.4 in the pt cruisers.
expert :
the reason that they have changed over to 5w20 is that they are adding variable valve timing to all of there engines.
expert :
the 5w20 is necessary in the engines with variable valve timing because the pcm monitors when the change takes place and times how long it takes, miliseconds, and if it takes longer then it should, it will set a fault in the computer.
expert:
make sure you use the recommend oil because they can deny warranty claims if you use the wrong oil viscosity
angermgmt :
So the software is calibrated to the 5W20 viscosity/resistance...
angermgmt :
Also any difference the the 3.8 from '07 to '11?
expert :
its not that it is calibrated to it, its that they watch for the valve timing to change and that had to happen in a certain time which is miliseconds, im not certain that they are even putting that on the 3.8 l but that is why they came out with 5w20 oil that and the 5.7l hemi with mds.
expert :
i would have to do some research on the 2011 3.8 there are no differences that im aware of.
angermgmt :
It would be important to know if that system was on the 3.8, hence a very broad discussion on this topic on the other forum. Arguement being this engine was iron clad in the minivans with the 5W30, now there are at least perceived issues with it and using 5W20.
expert :
i just researched the engine on chrysler and they have not added the variable valve timing to the 3.8l yet and the 3.8 l does use a cast iron block, even in the 2011's
angermgmt :
Ok well why then change 5W30 to 5W20 on an unchanged and proven engine design? Answer that and I think we're done...
expert :
5w20 is a synthetic blend and is a better oil in my opinion, i have an 03 minivan with a 3.3l and have switch over to 5w20 in it as well. being that 5w20 is semi synthetic it has less friction then 5w30.
angermgmt :
Thanks, looks like it's a six here and a half a dozen there issue. I'll lean to keeping my warranty.
Needless to say, no legitimate reason. If I didnt have the warranty I'd probably switch to full syn 5W30. IMHO
11-30-2010, 08:00 AM
#12
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There's been quite a few threads here on the forum recently discussing the quality of Chrysler's parts and manufacturing processes for the 3.8L V6, particularly as an increasing number of people are experiencing unexplained failures due to spun bearings and thrown rods (unexplained as in maintenance routines and oil service intervals have been adhered to, and many of the motors have been babied by the owners from new, so operator abuse/misuse can be ruled out) as well as substandard quality (and even incorrect assembly) of other components; cracking exhaust manifolds, leaking timing covers, pistons with their rings installed the wrong way, etc.
Many of the original Chrysler engineers who worked on the design of the motor originally are scratching their heads as well as the motor was of sound and simple design and for many years gave no trouble whatsoever and withstood considerable abuse in their application as a minivan motor, earning a reputation as reliable and unbreakable. I've quoted an autoworker below who worked at the Trenton engine plant and he gives some insight into why the quality of the motors appears to have suddenly gone down in recent years following the Chrysler's merger with Daimler, with the shift to outsourcing of manufactured parts and assemblies being identified as the problem:
"When I arrived back at Trenton Engine in December 1999, the place was full of life and machines for making parts. I don't think there was any floor space left in the 2.1 million square foot building to add anything else. At that time they were making the 3.2L and 3.5L aluminum block V6 engines, the 3.3L and 3.8L V6 engines for the minivans, and the 1.8L (for export) and 2.0L Neon motors. They made all of the pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, camshafts, blocks, cylinder heads, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds and water pumps for each of these motors plus some parts for the 318 and the 3.9L V6 that were assembled at Mound Road engine plant.
The process of outsourcing began around the beginning of 2000 [two years after the Daimler takeover]. The parts made in-house were held to a much higher quality standard then the ones they bought from the outside. One department after another was shut down and the machines were torn out and scrapped. There were new machines being unloaded from trucks for departments that were to be shut down within two weeks of their arrival. I guess once the ball got rolling to outsource there wasn't time to stop new equipment from being built and delivered. I think the new machinery ended up in the boneyard along with the rest of the scrap as Chrysler wasn't going to be making these parts at any of their other plants either. Some of the parts like connecting rods were going to be changed over to powdered metal so even the suppliers couldn't use the machines."
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/trenton-engine.html
Many of the original Chrysler engineers who worked on the design of the motor originally are scratching their heads as well as the motor was of sound and simple design and for many years gave no trouble whatsoever and withstood considerable abuse in their application as a minivan motor, earning a reputation as reliable and unbreakable. I've quoted an autoworker below who worked at the Trenton engine plant and he gives some insight into why the quality of the motors appears to have suddenly gone down in recent years following the Chrysler's merger with Daimler, with the shift to outsourcing of manufactured parts and assemblies being identified as the problem:
"When I arrived back at Trenton Engine in December 1999, the place was full of life and machines for making parts. I don't think there was any floor space left in the 2.1 million square foot building to add anything else. At that time they were making the 3.2L and 3.5L aluminum block V6 engines, the 3.3L and 3.8L V6 engines for the minivans, and the 1.8L (for export) and 2.0L Neon motors. They made all of the pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, camshafts, blocks, cylinder heads, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds and water pumps for each of these motors plus some parts for the 318 and the 3.9L V6 that were assembled at Mound Road engine plant.
The process of outsourcing began around the beginning of 2000 [two years after the Daimler takeover]. The parts made in-house were held to a much higher quality standard then the ones they bought from the outside. One department after another was shut down and the machines were torn out and scrapped. There were new machines being unloaded from trucks for departments that were to be shut down within two weeks of their arrival. I guess once the ball got rolling to outsource there wasn't time to stop new equipment from being built and delivered. I think the new machinery ended up in the boneyard along with the rest of the scrap as Chrysler wasn't going to be making these parts at any of their other plants either. Some of the parts like connecting rods were going to be changed over to powdered metal so even the suppliers couldn't use the machines."
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/trenton-engine.html
11-30-2010, 08:54 AM
#13
JK Jedi
Originally Posted by pdiddyblum
That leaves the owner with the problems. In October 2006, I purchased a brand new 2007 Jeep Rubicon Wrangler. Loved driving it! Thought that it was a good vehicle. After a 1 month I experienced minor issues, leaky freedom top, porous timing cover and almost every other TSB that was relevant for my year wrangler. Started to get rattling in the engine at 12,000 miles - the dealership and chrysler said was normal - no way is that normal I've been a mechanic for many years. I babied the vehicle performing all the necessary maintenance schedules as required. Bottom line I wasn't impressed with the quality due to ongoing small problems. I sold my Jeep last year - after my experience with Chrysler and the lack of customer service I will never buy a chrysler product again. I see people on this forum losing their minds over certain defects and the aggrovation that they have with the dealerships and Chrysler - it is the exact reason why I got rid of my Jeep. Not everyone has or had the problems with their Jeeps that I had but that was my experience -
01-26-2011, 02:27 PM
#16
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At first they told the wife one bad rocker arm, just had to re torque it.
I did not accept this and came unglued. Long story short they replace the head, then the engine. Bought the Jeep drove for one day did not have for the following 29 days. Dealership finally consented to allow us to trade the Junk Jeep for another one with no deduction for mileage. She put 200 miles on it dealership put on over 500 miles on it. trying to "fix it"
Now she owns a Rubicon without lockers... per dealership.
I did not accept this and came unglued. Long story short they replace the head, then the engine. Bought the Jeep drove for one day did not have for the following 29 days. Dealership finally consented to allow us to trade the Junk Jeep for another one with no deduction for mileage. She put 200 miles on it dealership put on over 500 miles on it. trying to "fix it"
Now she owns a Rubicon without lockers... per dealership.
01-26-2011, 02:49 PM
#17
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The sad thing is that all the auto companies are getting sloppy in their work and reliability factor. For instance , I was thinking of getting a Toyota Tundra ,, low end model. I went on Toyota Nation a forum for all Toyota makes and models. After reading the first 25 pages, I already lost interest in buying a new Tundra. Between oil leaks, emmision issues, engines that need to be ripped apart due to wrong parts installed at the factory, radio issues, suspension, etc
Toyota knows they got many issues on their hands, this is why they offer free maintenace and the whole big worry frre package for 2 years. Something different they are trying to do. It is a shame , when you have a interest in a product , and want to buy it, but the quality stand point is too much to be involved. Toyota , on their new models, have gone back to the old canister oil filters. These Tundra owners are flipping out over the new oil filter setup and the work involved to stop getting oil all over the chasis of the vehicle. Our Jeeps are so simple to work on, compared to what I was reading regarding the canister type. After reading all of the threads regarding the truck I wanted, it made these isssues with our Jeeps look so little.
At the end of the day, buy what makes you smile while driving, for me that only happens with my Jeep Wrangler. I know what you went through with a bad expierence, you had to do what you did. It gets to a point where a situation like that becomes too stressfull. What did you buy after seeling the Jeep?
SLIM
Toyota knows they got many issues on their hands, this is why they offer free maintenace and the whole big worry frre package for 2 years. Something different they are trying to do. It is a shame , when you have a interest in a product , and want to buy it, but the quality stand point is too much to be involved. Toyota , on their new models, have gone back to the old canister oil filters. These Tundra owners are flipping out over the new oil filter setup and the work involved to stop getting oil all over the chasis of the vehicle. Our Jeeps are so simple to work on, compared to what I was reading regarding the canister type. After reading all of the threads regarding the truck I wanted, it made these isssues with our Jeeps look so little.
At the end of the day, buy what makes you smile while driving, for me that only happens with my Jeep Wrangler. I know what you went through with a bad expierence, you had to do what you did. It gets to a point where a situation like that becomes too stressfull. What did you buy after seeling the Jeep?
SLIM
01-30-2011, 05:40 AM
#18
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We got a rubicon, I was refering to the statement the dealership/salesperson made that the rubicon was just a sticker and it did not have lockers. It is a shame that the dealership does not know what they are selling.
01-30-2011, 06:16 AM
#19
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You can be darned sure that some of the quality people in Chrysler Technical Center, Quality Engineering Center, Trenton Engine, Toledo Assembly Plant, and their various Manufacturing brethren read these forums.
I really hope that they take this information back to their managers and actually do something about their ongoing issues with reliability and performance. They used to. The aftermarket guys on this forum do.
What would be an immediate quick fix to the engine issues as well as the rest of the JK quality issues is a mandate that the DEALERS are instructed to treat each and every customer as if the reported problem is a CHRYSLER issue rather than arguing with them. Hiding the blame, negating warranties due to modifications, not fixing the problem, not working with the customer, not knowing how to fix the problems all add up to one major issue that I would think Sergio Marchionne would find important. The customers are going to go somewhere else and stop buying his products. Maybe he doesn't care, but I have heard him speak twice. I think he does care. Fix the experience we have at some of the dealerships, fix the reported problems, we'll continue to buy their shiny new rides. Treat us like an enemy at the dealers when they have obvious and undeniable quality issues with their product and guess what? We stop buying. I would think it is a very simple equation. It shouldn't take another government buyout to be able to connect those dots.
But it doesn't just stop at the dealerships. That's a quick fix that can create positive impact. An internal memo from the highest echelons of CTC can address that asap. The ongoing problem is that Chrysler is a very big corporation with many different departments who all have different metrics for measuring their performance. You can be sure that some of those metrics are conflicting between departments. i.e.- Manufacturing - How many units assembled out the door today? Quality - How many cars assembled today with known quality issues on hold in shipping yards? That's a head scratcher. Why is manufacturing sending units out into the field with known bad issues? Do you think everything is caught? Yeah right.
Come on Chrysler. Turn this around. I'm tired of reading the ongoing posts from your biggest Jeep fans that they are experiencing dealer issues, warranty issues and not to mention quality issues from one of your biggest selling vehicles for years. Let's hope the 3.6 solves some of the engine issues.
PS - I still love my jeep. So, I really hope I got one of the good ones and not the lemons.
I really hope that they take this information back to their managers and actually do something about their ongoing issues with reliability and performance. They used to. The aftermarket guys on this forum do.
What would be an immediate quick fix to the engine issues as well as the rest of the JK quality issues is a mandate that the DEALERS are instructed to treat each and every customer as if the reported problem is a CHRYSLER issue rather than arguing with them. Hiding the blame, negating warranties due to modifications, not fixing the problem, not working with the customer, not knowing how to fix the problems all add up to one major issue that I would think Sergio Marchionne would find important. The customers are going to go somewhere else and stop buying his products. Maybe he doesn't care, but I have heard him speak twice. I think he does care. Fix the experience we have at some of the dealerships, fix the reported problems, we'll continue to buy their shiny new rides. Treat us like an enemy at the dealers when they have obvious and undeniable quality issues with their product and guess what? We stop buying. I would think it is a very simple equation. It shouldn't take another government buyout to be able to connect those dots.
But it doesn't just stop at the dealerships. That's a quick fix that can create positive impact. An internal memo from the highest echelons of CTC can address that asap. The ongoing problem is that Chrysler is a very big corporation with many different departments who all have different metrics for measuring their performance. You can be sure that some of those metrics are conflicting between departments. i.e.- Manufacturing - How many units assembled out the door today? Quality - How many cars assembled today with known quality issues on hold in shipping yards? That's a head scratcher. Why is manufacturing sending units out into the field with known bad issues? Do you think everything is caught? Yeah right.
Come on Chrysler. Turn this around. I'm tired of reading the ongoing posts from your biggest Jeep fans that they are experiencing dealer issues, warranty issues and not to mention quality issues from one of your biggest selling vehicles for years. Let's hope the 3.6 solves some of the engine issues.
PS - I still love my jeep. So, I really hope I got one of the good ones and not the lemons.
02-01-2011, 10:59 AM
#20
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You guys know all the talk about the dry starts in the morning. Many refer to the Oil filter being the problem. Well it is not.
FINALLY! I got rid of the noise.... well, mostly anyway. For those of you who suffer this noise, read on:
I sent a PM to angryhippie and got the low down on how he fixed his clicking/tapping noise. Armed with that info, I sent the video I put in my first post to every service department of every jeep dealer in Denver. Every one of them said I had a problem and should bring it in. So, I called around and talked to the service advisors. I explained that I'd done my research and replacing the lifters makes no difference and would they be willing to try other solutions if that didn't work? A few said yes, a few said no "that's the chrysler recommended solution", and some said "there was nothing they could do, some are just like that".
I took it to Go Southwest Jeep. They let it sit overnight and heard the noise on startup. They replaced the lifters per Chrysler's instructions. They confidently assured me that this would fix the problem. Brought the jeep home, next morning fired it up and walla, same noise, same loudness, same duration. Drove straight back to the dealer and then took about an hour discussing the problem with their head technician and the service advisor. They told me "there is nothing we can do". At that point I got pretty fired up because I only brought the jeep to them in the first place since they said they would pursue other ways to fix it, and I told them time and time again when I brought it in that lifters would not solve it. I asked the technician to try the fix angryhippie told me about (rockers and bolts). He claimed that these were totally unrelated and would not do anything. Finally he admitted, "I've been in this business 20 years and I've learned not to say never, so if you want I'll write a letter to Chrysler's engineers." He went on to say that this is actually not a "problem" anyway and is not really a dry start and no damage is being done to the engine. I don't buy it, so I said yes wite the letter to Chrysler and lets follow this through.
Couple days later, I got a call that the jeep was ready. I picked it up and got my service ticket back, which had the following info on it:
(2) 4781184AA SHAFT-ROCKER AR
(12) 6506521AA BOLT-HEADER POI
(2) 6506522AA BOLT HEADER POI
PERFORMED COLD START AND COULD HEAR THE ROCKERS TAP FOR ABOUT 5 TO 10 SECONDS. CALLED STARS (CASE #129926) STARS SUGGESTED TO REPLACE BOTH ROCKER SHAFTS AND ALL ROCKER SHAFT BOLTS. R AND R PULLED BOTH VALVE COVERS AND REPLACED THE ROCKER SHAFTS AND BOLTS AND PERFORMED ROAD TEST AND THE TAPPET NOISE IS GONE AT THIS TIME.
I have started jeep up a few times since and its REALLY cold out. It taps for less than a second much quiter and faster than before and then its gone. HUGE improvement over what I had.
Hope this info helps someone else with this problem. You have to be persistant and you need to bring these part numbers with you. Insist they call Chrysler (or "Stars" whatever that is) and ask them to reference my case number if they don't believe this will help. good luck!
I sent a PM to angryhippie and got the low down on how he fixed his clicking/tapping noise. Armed with that info, I sent the video I put in my first post to every service department of every jeep dealer in Denver. Every one of them said I had a problem and should bring it in. So, I called around and talked to the service advisors. I explained that I'd done my research and replacing the lifters makes no difference and would they be willing to try other solutions if that didn't work? A few said yes, a few said no "that's the chrysler recommended solution", and some said "there was nothing they could do, some are just like that".
I took it to Go Southwest Jeep. They let it sit overnight and heard the noise on startup. They replaced the lifters per Chrysler's instructions. They confidently assured me that this would fix the problem. Brought the jeep home, next morning fired it up and walla, same noise, same loudness, same duration. Drove straight back to the dealer and then took about an hour discussing the problem with their head technician and the service advisor. They told me "there is nothing we can do". At that point I got pretty fired up because I only brought the jeep to them in the first place since they said they would pursue other ways to fix it, and I told them time and time again when I brought it in that lifters would not solve it. I asked the technician to try the fix angryhippie told me about (rockers and bolts). He claimed that these were totally unrelated and would not do anything. Finally he admitted, "I've been in this business 20 years and I've learned not to say never, so if you want I'll write a letter to Chrysler's engineers." He went on to say that this is actually not a "problem" anyway and is not really a dry start and no damage is being done to the engine. I don't buy it, so I said yes wite the letter to Chrysler and lets follow this through.
Couple days later, I got a call that the jeep was ready. I picked it up and got my service ticket back, which had the following info on it:
(2) 4781184AA SHAFT-ROCKER AR
(12) 6506521AA BOLT-HEADER POI
(2) 6506522AA BOLT HEADER POI
PERFORMED COLD START AND COULD HEAR THE ROCKERS TAP FOR ABOUT 5 TO 10 SECONDS. CALLED STARS (CASE #129926) STARS SUGGESTED TO REPLACE BOTH ROCKER SHAFTS AND ALL ROCKER SHAFT BOLTS. R AND R PULLED BOTH VALVE COVERS AND REPLACED THE ROCKER SHAFTS AND BOLTS AND PERFORMED ROAD TEST AND THE TAPPET NOISE IS GONE AT THIS TIME.
I have started jeep up a few times since and its REALLY cold out. It taps for less than a second much quiter and faster than before and then its gone. HUGE improvement over what I had.
Hope this info helps someone else with this problem. You have to be persistant and you need to bring these part numbers with you. Insist they call Chrysler (or "Stars" whatever that is) and ask them to reference my case number if they don't believe this will help. good luck!