Help Reading Cam Position TSB
12-05-2018, 11:37 AM
#11
JK Junkie
If the battery voltage was ~12.7 after stopping the engine, and there is low voltage in the morning, it is either excess self discharge within the battery, or there is excess key-off current in the electrical system that is draining the battery
To test if there is excess key-off amperage, use an ammeter in series with batt negative post and neg terminal with the key off (and everything else too). The meter should have a 10A scale (or higher), set it to that initially. As a precaution against blowing the meter's fuse with the initial current, first connect a jumper wire from the batt neg post to the ground term (parallel with the meter) so that all the initial current goes through the jumper rather than the meter, then remove the jumper after a minute to read the current. After about 3 minutes the current should get down to the power-off sleep state of <35ma. If there are added aftermarket accessories, the current may be a bit higher (50ma is about the max, less is better).
The battery could be tested for excess self discharge by disconnecting it, charging, and then simply let it set a day or two and check it's voltage. This is slow, and it's still possible that the there is excess key-off amperage as well.
Regarding the alternator voltage; the voltage varies automatically with temperature (there's a sensor near the battery) on this Jeep. It might read 14.0 with a warmed up engine compartment and 14.5 when first started. There's a temperature/voltage table in the PCM, the concept is that warm batteries require less voltage, and vice versa. From memory, 13.8 is about the lower voltage limit in the PCM's table. The voltage can also vary with charge current. The reason for bringing this up is that it can lead people to believe something is wrong when it's working properly.
On the trickle charge, if it's the battery it won't come back to life with a charge. Regarding replacement of the starter, alternator, coil pack -- Strongly suggest doing nothing until the above testing determines the problem. Swapping parts without going through proper diagnosis often leads to further problems. Every new/rebuilt part is suspect until it proves itself, and just taking something apart introduces more possible errors. It's real easy for a simple problem to turn into multiple problems, like the doctors say "do no harm".
To test if there is excess key-off amperage, use an ammeter in series with batt negative post and neg terminal with the key off (and everything else too). The meter should have a 10A scale (or higher), set it to that initially. As a precaution against blowing the meter's fuse with the initial current, first connect a jumper wire from the batt neg post to the ground term (parallel with the meter) so that all the initial current goes through the jumper rather than the meter, then remove the jumper after a minute to read the current. After about 3 minutes the current should get down to the power-off sleep state of <35ma. If there are added aftermarket accessories, the current may be a bit higher (50ma is about the max, less is better).
The battery could be tested for excess self discharge by disconnecting it, charging, and then simply let it set a day or two and check it's voltage. This is slow, and it's still possible that the there is excess key-off amperage as well.
Regarding the alternator voltage; the voltage varies automatically with temperature (there's a sensor near the battery) on this Jeep. It might read 14.0 with a warmed up engine compartment and 14.5 when first started. There's a temperature/voltage table in the PCM, the concept is that warm batteries require less voltage, and vice versa. From memory, 13.8 is about the lower voltage limit in the PCM's table. The voltage can also vary with charge current. The reason for bringing this up is that it can lead people to believe something is wrong when it's working properly.
On the trickle charge, if it's the battery it won't come back to life with a charge. Regarding replacement of the starter, alternator, coil pack -- Strongly suggest doing nothing until the above testing determines the problem. Swapping parts without going through proper diagnosis often leads to further problems. Every new/rebuilt part is suspect until it proves itself, and just taking something apart introduces more possible errors. It's real easy for a simple problem to turn into multiple problems, like the doctors say "do no harm".
Last edited by Mr.T; 12-05-2018 at 11:41 AM.
12-05-2018, 08:10 PM
#12
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
ok so today after i left work the battery was dead again. As soon as I hooked up my backup battery jump start, it kicked right over. I think it's safe to say I have a dead battery lol! Tomorrow at work I'll put a charge on it so I stop having to jump it. The question will still remain if there is a slight draw or not. So I plan on running my tests this weekend and hopefully the trickle charge will carry me over until then. I'll report back Mr. T with my numbers shortly.
I don't think there is anything wrong with my alternator however I would like to know in advance which unit I should be buying in case I can catch it on sale or so Im prepped for the day that it does die. As tempting as the Mean Green sounds, I'd be scared to run it on fear of burning up the computer or the cheap wires mopar uses. The stock mopar unit at 160 amps seems to be one of the only options for replacement. All of the other companies I can see only go up to 120 amp?
I don't think there is anything wrong with my alternator however I would like to know in advance which unit I should be buying in case I can catch it on sale or so Im prepped for the day that it does die. As tempting as the Mean Green sounds, I'd be scared to run it on fear of burning up the computer or the cheap wires mopar uses. The stock mopar unit at 160 amps seems to be one of the only options for replacement. All of the other companies I can see only go up to 120 amp?
12-05-2018, 10:06 PM
#13
JK Junkie
If I bought a spare, I'd feel like running it immediately to make sure it wasn't defective. But check this thread out, it's a "black swan" nightmare scenario... https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/jk-e...roaked-348547/
If you find a deal, let me know!
Last edited by Mr.T; 12-05-2018 at 10:10 PM.
12-06-2018, 09:03 PM
#14
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
So the sticker on mine is the 4727865AB and also says Denso (made in Japan). So I guess I have been running the 140amp unit. The 160 amp price difference is $80, $399 or $319 (going by quadratec which doesn't specify if its re-manufactured or not? and does not say anything about Denso). Rock Auto specifically says Reman after it, doesn't carry any new Mopar units and has one listed as Denso.
Any advice on re-man? I don't think they all are reman since the dealer always brags about how they never use anything but new Mopar parts. I have a message into Quadratec already and just for fun I'll call the parts house and expect a $600 price but at least see if they are using re-man. I almost want to get the 140amp Denso labeled unit on Rock Auto but then if you click on the zoomed in picture of the Mopar unit it says Denso on it too. So if re-man is cool (or the only option), I guess i would step it up to the 160 unless the same theory applies on the mean green and just go with exactly what was once there already and not risk burning anything out. It's been solid for 151k.
Quadratec
Mopar 4727865AB 140 Amp Alternator for 07-11 Jeep Wrangler JK
Mopar 4801304AC 160 Amp Alternator for 07-11 Jeep Wrangler JK
Rock Auto -
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...generator,2412
as far as a new battery......
I am thinking of getting this Interstate Battery. There is an actual Interstate store by me and they will get it in on Monday for $199. I think I paid the same for the Sears AGM and a three year warranty. This one says 4 which seems to be one of the longer warranties out there.
MTZ-34
https://www.interstatebatteries.com/...34?search=true
Any advice on re-man? I don't think they all are reman since the dealer always brags about how they never use anything but new Mopar parts. I have a message into Quadratec already and just for fun I'll call the parts house and expect a $600 price but at least see if they are using re-man. I almost want to get the 140amp Denso labeled unit on Rock Auto but then if you click on the zoomed in picture of the Mopar unit it says Denso on it too. So if re-man is cool (or the only option), I guess i would step it up to the 160 unless the same theory applies on the mean green and just go with exactly what was once there already and not risk burning anything out. It's been solid for 151k.
Quadratec
Mopar 4727865AB 140 Amp Alternator for 07-11 Jeep Wrangler JK
Mopar 4801304AC 160 Amp Alternator for 07-11 Jeep Wrangler JK
Rock Auto -
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...generator,2412
as far as a new battery......
I am thinking of getting this Interstate Battery. There is an actual Interstate store by me and they will get it in on Monday for $199. I think I paid the same for the Sears AGM and a three year warranty. This one says 4 which seems to be one of the longer warranties out there.
MTZ-34
https://www.interstatebatteries.com/...34?search=true
12-06-2018, 09:30 PM
#15
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
A few months ago I broke off a ground when cleaning them after a long salty trip. I figured I would have to use my cut off wheel to get what's left of the old ground off and weld a new ground on. It seems like a stretch but could connecting these two grounds together be causing my voltage leak? I know it's doubtful but I better ask since it's such an easy fix. I circled the ground I broke and made an arrow to where I connected them.
12-06-2018, 10:49 PM
#16
JK Junkie
No problem moving the ground wire. The noise in the video might be from the alternator. An easy check is to take the serpentine belt off and spin it by hand, feel the bearings. You can idle the engine with the belt off as well, but only for a short time since the water pump won't be running. If you take the belt off, spin the tensioner and check it too.
BTW -- If it turns out there is excess key-off amperage, one of the first things to do is to disconnect the alternator and see if it goes away.
The Interstate battery looks good. If you have a BatteriesPlus store around, might want to take a look at this X2Power AGM which is made by NorthStar, comparable to the Interstate and Odyssey . It's $260 after the 10% online discount w/ in-store pickup. I've bought 4 over the last couple years because of the 5 year full replacement warranty.
You got me looking for an alternator deal too... MoparWholesaleParts has been pretty good, here's a discount code they sent me for 5% off: TY17 .
It appears that Mopar puts a R prefix for re-manufactured parts, for example 4801304AC ($267 + $55) is the 160A new and R4801304AC ($134 + $60) is the 160A re-manufactured. MWP's prices with shipping and the 5% discount look competitive with RockAuto. RockAuto looks like they have both the regular and reman part numbers, but listed all in the reman section.
.
BTW -- If it turns out there is excess key-off amperage, one of the first things to do is to disconnect the alternator and see if it goes away.
The Interstate battery looks good. If you have a BatteriesPlus store around, might want to take a look at this X2Power AGM which is made by NorthStar, comparable to the Interstate and Odyssey . It's $260 after the 10% online discount w/ in-store pickup. I've bought 4 over the last couple years because of the 5 year full replacement warranty.
You got me looking for an alternator deal too... MoparWholesaleParts has been pretty good, here's a discount code they sent me for 5% off: TY17 .
It appears that Mopar puts a R prefix for re-manufactured parts, for example 4801304AC ($267 + $55) is the 160A new and R4801304AC ($134 + $60) is the 160A re-manufactured. MWP's prices with shipping and the 5% discount look competitive with RockAuto. RockAuto looks like they have both the regular and reman part numbers, but listed all in the reman section.
.
Last edited by Mr.T; 12-06-2018 at 10:53 PM.
12-07-2018, 11:40 AM
#17
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Mr.T
No problem moving the ground wire. The noise in the video might be from the alternator. An easy check is to take the serpentine belt off and spin it by hand, feel the bearings. You can idle the engine with the belt off as well, but only for a short time since the water pump won't be running. If you take the belt off, spin the tensioner and check it too.
BTW -- If it turns out there is excess key-off amperage, one of the first things to do is to disconnect the alternator and see if it goes away.
The Interstate battery looks good. If you have a BatteriesPlus store around, might want to take a look at this X2Power AGM which is made by NorthStar, comparable to the Interstate and Odyssey . It's $260 after the 10% online discount w/ in-store pickup. I've bought 4 over the last couple years because of the 5 year full replacement warranty.
You got me looking for an alternator deal too... MoparWholesaleParts has been pretty good, here's a discount code they sent me for 5% off: TY17 .
It appears that Mopar puts a R prefix for re-manufactured parts, for example 4801304AC ($267 + $55) is the 160A new and R4801304AC ($134 + $60) is the 160A re-manufactured. MWP's prices with shipping and the 5% discount look competitive with RockAuto. RockAuto looks like they have both the regular and reman part numbers, but listed all in the reman section.
.
BTW -- If it turns out there is excess key-off amperage, one of the first things to do is to disconnect the alternator and see if it goes away.
The Interstate battery looks good. If you have a BatteriesPlus store around, might want to take a look at this X2Power AGM which is made by NorthStar, comparable to the Interstate and Odyssey . It's $260 after the 10% online discount w/ in-store pickup. I've bought 4 over the last couple years because of the 5 year full replacement warranty.
You got me looking for an alternator deal too... MoparWholesaleParts has been pretty good, here's a discount code they sent me for 5% off: TY17 .
It appears that Mopar puts a R prefix for re-manufactured parts, for example 4801304AC ($267 + $55) is the 160A new and R4801304AC ($134 + $60) is the 160A re-manufactured. MWP's prices with shipping and the 5% discount look competitive with RockAuto. RockAuto looks like they have both the regular and reman part numbers, but listed all in the reman section.
.Weird part is that if I put in my make and model 08 JKU it doesn't show the 140amp (AB) as not fitting my vehicle.
So I guess I'll order this tonight. And I guess I'm getting the 160 amp? Lol
12-09-2018, 03:46 PM
#18
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Ok so I wanted to do some testing this weekend before I pulled the trigger on new parts.
First I took it to a small shop that's done some work for me and he used a snap on scanner to test the battery and starter and alternator. According to that they all passed.
Then he used a non-digital old skool meter and that showed my battery failed the load test.
I happen to have an extra starter from a game of parts roulette a few years back. I'm going to put that in today. When I pulled the heat shield off the starter to check the voltage it was completely corroded and had green all over the posts. It needs to be cleaned up for sure and I have a spare that can at least rule this out. So the spare went in.
On another note my interior light is much dimmer than the other. You can see the front light is much dimmer than the rear. Coincidence? They are LED from northridge. Pretty old at this point for sure.
First I took it to a small shop that's done some work for me and he used a snap on scanner to test the battery and starter and alternator. According to that they all passed.
Then he used a non-digital old skool meter and that showed my battery failed the load test.
I happen to have an extra starter from a game of parts roulette a few years back. I'm going to put that in today. When I pulled the heat shield off the starter to check the voltage it was completely corroded and had green all over the posts. It needs to be cleaned up for sure and I have a spare that can at least rule this out. So the spare went in.
On another note my interior light is much dimmer than the other. You can see the front light is much dimmer than the rear. Coincidence? They are LED from northridge. Pretty old at this point for sure.
12-09-2018, 09:42 PM
#19
JK Junkie
Hopefully they also tested for key-off amperage, the <35ma specification.
From the pic of the starter, it looks like the Jeep spends a lot of time within a mile or so of the ocean!
From the pic of the starter, it looks like the Jeep spends a lot of time within a mile or so of the ocean!
12-10-2018, 03:03 PM
#20
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Lol it's about 50 yards from the beach everyday. Parked or running the salt eats it up.
1. Would that interior light be doing any type of weird draw since it's aftermarket LED. Doubtful but just checking.
2. It's not the starter causing an issue. I went to go to work this morning and same problem. No crank and as soon as I hook up the jump pack it kicks right over. New starter was installed yesterday.
3. I'm taking your advice and going with the x2 battery. It's got a 5 year warranty, 100% lead but it's also a special order and it will take 10 days before they can get it in at batteries plus. Right now it's $30 off mail in rebate and 10% off. Guy said it's the best deal he's seen on that battery and it's the best one they sell hands down.
The current sears die hard AGM was manufactured in February 2018 and I got it in March. 7 months old. I guess all signs are still pointing to a dead battery. I'll keep this thread updated.
1. Would that interior light be doing any type of weird draw since it's aftermarket LED. Doubtful but just checking.
2. It's not the starter causing an issue. I went to go to work this morning and same problem. No crank and as soon as I hook up the jump pack it kicks right over. New starter was installed yesterday.
3. I'm taking your advice and going with the x2 battery. It's got a 5 year warranty, 100% lead but it's also a special order and it will take 10 days before they can get it in at batteries plus. Right now it's $30 off mail in rebate and 10% off. Guy said it's the best deal he's seen on that battery and it's the best one they sell hands down.
The current sears die hard AGM was manufactured in February 2018 and I got it in March. 7 months old. I guess all signs are still pointing to a dead battery. I'll keep this thread updated.