Winch Deals
01-16-2008, 11:13 AM
#31
JK Enthusiast
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Somebody who can do numbers!
I agree with you, pretty much. Although for all winches, including the Warn, energy is conserved (the work done, in amp-hours, will always be about the same for a given load. Has to be). The extra money gets you faster, more durable, better bragging rights, etc. Now and then use to get unstuck, budget is probably fine.
As a side note, if you compare the calculated efficiency of the el cheapo HF and the XD 9000 (calculated by comparing the electrical horsepower used vs the rated mechanical horsepower), the XD is slightly more efficient, by a few percent, probably because of the difference between series wound and permanent magnet. Both are in the region of 65% efficient, which is typical of simple DC motors. the rest goes off as heat. I notice the Warn data I've seen doesn't say anything about cool-down, I believe the higher-end units such as yours are thermally protected, and the "lower" end (which is pretty darned good) units will have similar overheat restrictions. At least, the Warn i had on my old Blazer had caution stickers all over it and would fry an egg with two or three minutes' use.
You get what you pay for, sometimes a bit less. A $300 winch is not the equal of a $1200 dollar one. The $300 one is better than none, and as you say, will greatly increase your odds of survival.
I agree with you, pretty much. Although for all winches, including the Warn, energy is conserved (the work done, in amp-hours, will always be about the same for a given load. Has to be). The extra money gets you faster, more durable, better bragging rights, etc. Now and then use to get unstuck, budget is probably fine.
As a side note, if you compare the calculated efficiency of the el cheapo HF and the XD 9000 (calculated by comparing the electrical horsepower used vs the rated mechanical horsepower), the XD is slightly more efficient, by a few percent, probably because of the difference between series wound and permanent magnet. Both are in the region of 65% efficient, which is typical of simple DC motors. the rest goes off as heat. I notice the Warn data I've seen doesn't say anything about cool-down, I believe the higher-end units such as yours are thermally protected, and the "lower" end (which is pretty darned good) units will have similar overheat restrictions. At least, the Warn i had on my old Blazer had caution stickers all over it and would fry an egg with two or three minutes' use.
You get what you pay for, sometimes a bit less. A $300 winch is not the equal of a $1200 dollar one. The $300 one is better than none, and as you say, will greatly increase your odds of survival.
01-16-2008, 11:19 AM
#32
JK Super Freak
My wife got me the Warn for X-mas many years ago....so I got mine for free.
Best of BOTH worlds.
The advantages to being a combination of an Adonis and a Stallion I suppose.
Best of BOTH worlds.
The advantages to being a combination of an Adonis and a Stallion I suppose.
01-16-2008, 01:03 PM
#33
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Winchdepot has the Warn 8000 for $555 shipped. You spend what, $200 more than the China-built winch(s) and get the Warn.
I've been waiting for the Ramsey 8500 to go on sale again, but for $37.78 less, I can get the Warn 8000, that has a series-wound 4.8hp motor compared to the Ramsey 2.1hp permanent-magnet motor.
I've been waiting for the Ramsey 8500 to go on sale again, but for $37.78 less, I can get the Warn 8000, that has a series-wound 4.8hp motor compared to the Ramsey 2.1hp permanent-magnet motor.
01-17-2008, 10:41 PM
#34
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The warn m8000 doesn't seem to be anybetter then the summit racing 9000lb. I thinks this might have to do with the fact that it is a 9000lb and not 8000lb. Is the warn worth the extra 100? Also does anybody have experience good or bad with the summit racing winch. i know i have herd a few people mention them. Thanks for the info as always.
01-18-2008, 06:20 AM
#35
JK Super Freak
Its just a question of durability.
The Summit, and Harbor Freight, etc...are typically just not going to last as long, and, you have to give them more time to cool, run a minute, wait, run a minute and wait, etc.
Even in the winch shoot out article mentioned....you could see the difference...about half the winches failed in one test...for what ever reason.
The Warn 9.5 xp had no trouble, period. The Superwinch kept up with it, but struggled, and the harbor freight unit got weaker and weaker as the test went on, but didn't die altogether....thats in cost order.
That's not to say that cost tells you quality, but, that's what the test showed. It was not a truly scientific study, one winch from each company...the t-max just had the line come off the spool (Wasn't attached right from the factory....), the Ramsey had its solinoid melt, etc...so only 3 winches made it to the end, one barely.
They did NOT allow the Harbor Freight unit to cool after each minute of pulling like the manual says to, if they HAD, it probably would have been fine for the entire day of testing...but, they didn't, like most people, they were not willing to WAIT that long, so, they killed it a bit more on every pull.
So - it come down to durability - if you'll only use it once in a while, saving some $ on a less durable unit is justifiable, especially if its failure will NOT jeapordize your safety etc....like being alone in the boonies, etc. (That's one reason to not wheel alone, etc...)
Winches made by the same company, but private labeled, to meet a price point, are not the same as the non-private labelled versions. Warn makes the Tabor, which is missing some features that add reliability...but Warn also makes the 8000 in an M series, which is ALSO a less durable unit.
Look at the warrenties...if it says lifetime....it means the peole who made the winch, and know its durability, think its going to last/not cost them too much to fix the 1,000's or millions of winches they will sell, etc.
If it says a year, or 90 days...well, THAT'S how long they are thinking will be OK to cover w/o losing their shirts on warranty repair work.
Personally, having worked with the people who engineer stuff like this...they have a pretty good idea as to life cycle and price points....and NO winch is made to last forever...it would be too expensive....so they are ALWAYS engineered to a price point.
The one's trying to reach the market demographics involving people who can afford to get a $400 winch, but NOT a $50 winch....HAVE TO CUT CORNERS to MAKE a $400 winch....they CANNOT sacrifice RATED load capacity....if its a 9k lb rated winch, it HAS to pull at least that much, period....and they all do.
But, that's on the first wrap....when the spool is smaller, and has the most leverage...as line comes on, the torque required to reel it in goes up, as the diameter of the spooled rope increases.
Some winches loose 1/2 their power by the time the rope's in, others maybe have 3/4 left...the Warn 9.5xp, only loses about 16% or so.
Some winches, to GET the rated power, just downshift the gearing, and make the line pull slow, to get the oomph needed...that's the most COMMON corner to cut, as it doesn't hurt reliability....just speed.
Some winches have very high lines speeds under ZERO LOAD, but, it drops WAY down under load....like it might go from 50'/minute with NO load, to 3'/minute under load, etc. The Warn, which is expensive, and the T-max 9k, which is not both have a 40'-ish per second no load speed, but the Warn is pulling well over 2k lb harder at the end of the pull, even though its only rated at 9,5 k vs 9k. The T-max maintains good line SPEED though....so, it did NOT sacrifice speed, just power.
Others go to magnet, rather than series wound motors, or use cheaper thermal overload protection, thinner more vulnerable wiring harnesses, less case strength, a cheaper brake assembly, a different drive system, etc.
SOMETHING has to give, and, the cheaper the winch, the more has to go to make it under the price point of the market its meant for.
Again - look at the warranty...that's the FACTORY'S guess as to durability.
Buy as much durability as YOU need, as much speed as you need, as much load capacity as you need, and you're good to go.
The Summit, and Harbor Freight, etc...are typically just not going to last as long, and, you have to give them more time to cool, run a minute, wait, run a minute and wait, etc.
Even in the winch shoot out article mentioned....you could see the difference...about half the winches failed in one test...for what ever reason.
The Warn 9.5 xp had no trouble, period. The Superwinch kept up with it, but struggled, and the harbor freight unit got weaker and weaker as the test went on, but didn't die altogether....thats in cost order.
That's not to say that cost tells you quality, but, that's what the test showed. It was not a truly scientific study, one winch from each company...the t-max just had the line come off the spool (Wasn't attached right from the factory....), the Ramsey had its solinoid melt, etc...so only 3 winches made it to the end, one barely.
They did NOT allow the Harbor Freight unit to cool after each minute of pulling like the manual says to, if they HAD, it probably would have been fine for the entire day of testing...but, they didn't, like most people, they were not willing to WAIT that long, so, they killed it a bit more on every pull.
So - it come down to durability - if you'll only use it once in a while, saving some $ on a less durable unit is justifiable, especially if its failure will NOT jeapordize your safety etc....like being alone in the boonies, etc. (That's one reason to not wheel alone, etc...)
Winches made by the same company, but private labeled, to meet a price point, are not the same as the non-private labelled versions. Warn makes the Tabor, which is missing some features that add reliability...but Warn also makes the 8000 in an M series, which is ALSO a less durable unit.
Look at the warrenties...if it says lifetime....it means the peole who made the winch, and know its durability, think its going to last/not cost them too much to fix the 1,000's or millions of winches they will sell, etc.
If it says a year, or 90 days...well, THAT'S how long they are thinking will be OK to cover w/o losing their shirts on warranty repair work.
Personally, having worked with the people who engineer stuff like this...they have a pretty good idea as to life cycle and price points....and NO winch is made to last forever...it would be too expensive....so they are ALWAYS engineered to a price point.
The one's trying to reach the market demographics involving people who can afford to get a $400 winch, but NOT a $50 winch....HAVE TO CUT CORNERS to MAKE a $400 winch....they CANNOT sacrifice RATED load capacity....if its a 9k lb rated winch, it HAS to pull at least that much, period....and they all do.
But, that's on the first wrap....when the spool is smaller, and has the most leverage...as line comes on, the torque required to reel it in goes up, as the diameter of the spooled rope increases.
Some winches loose 1/2 their power by the time the rope's in, others maybe have 3/4 left...the Warn 9.5xp, only loses about 16% or so.
Some winches, to GET the rated power, just downshift the gearing, and make the line pull slow, to get the oomph needed...that's the most COMMON corner to cut, as it doesn't hurt reliability....just speed.
Some winches have very high lines speeds under ZERO LOAD, but, it drops WAY down under load....like it might go from 50'/minute with NO load, to 3'/minute under load, etc. The Warn, which is expensive, and the T-max 9k, which is not both have a 40'-ish per second no load speed, but the Warn is pulling well over 2k lb harder at the end of the pull, even though its only rated at 9,5 k vs 9k. The T-max maintains good line SPEED though....so, it did NOT sacrifice speed, just power.
Others go to magnet, rather than series wound motors, or use cheaper thermal overload protection, thinner more vulnerable wiring harnesses, less case strength, a cheaper brake assembly, a different drive system, etc.
SOMETHING has to give, and, the cheaper the winch, the more has to go to make it under the price point of the market its meant for.
Again - look at the warranty...that's the FACTORY'S guess as to durability.
Buy as much durability as YOU need, as much speed as you need, as much load capacity as you need, and you're good to go.
Last edited by TEEJ; 01-18-2008 at 06:29 AM.
01-18-2008, 07:35 AM
#37
JK Freak
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Teej does it again. I nominate teej for the excellence in forum contributor award.
Teej continues to bring facts into forum topics. And I'm talking quality info, not some random cut & paste job that starts out fact & finishes in WTF?ville. It's posts like these that keep me coming back. Sorry to go off topic, but I was overwelmed by the quantity and quality of posts in this thread.
Oh and just to make this post more topic relevant there's a winch in the for sale section with 100 feet of 3/8's viking line & safety thimble for 599. WHAT A BARGIN!!
Teej continues to bring facts into forum topics. And I'm talking quality info, not some random cut & paste job that starts out fact & finishes in WTF?ville. It's posts like these that keep me coming back. Sorry to go off topic, but I was overwelmed by the quantity and quality of posts in this thread.
Oh and just to make this post more topic relevant there's a winch in the for sale section with 100 feet of 3/8's viking line & safety thimble for 599. WHAT A BARGIN!!
01-18-2008, 08:52 AM
#39
JK Enthusiast
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Gorilla winch
The only complaint I had, was the wireless remote that was installed on it. If it was damp outside it would work intermittently. I removed it, no issues now.At the time I bought it, it was on ebay for $400., it works for me.
