Winch Deals
01-15-2008, 03:26 PM
#22
JK Freak
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Naw, I didnt read the whole thread and this might be redundant but...
I think if you live in an area w/ lots of mud or rain save for a winck w/ an integrated solenoid, my warn m8000 takes a beating and I moved the solenoid into the engine compartment. If in a dry climate use whatever just check on quality and load rating. Also remember that use of a snatch block doubles your pulling power.
I think if you live in an area w/ lots of mud or rain save for a winck w/ an integrated solenoid, my warn m8000 takes a beating and I moved the solenoid into the engine compartment. If in a dry climate use whatever just check on quality and load rating. Also remember that use of a snatch block doubles your pulling power.
01-15-2008, 05:08 PM
#23
JK Super Freak
I found them a little cheaper (by about $10 or so) but I have been looking into this winch as well. The research I have found basically gives me about a 50/50 good and bad. Some say the winch is good and works OK for them although it is slow, while others think the winch is crap. I, however, don't require anything major and I just need one for a "just in case" factor, so I am seriously considering the XRC8.
01-16-2008, 03:32 AM
#26
JK Super Freak
If you use a snatch block on a slow (3'/m) weak winch, just to be ABLE to DO a recovery...you will need about an hour ( ~ 66 minutes) to pull someone from a 100' muck hole, AND an extra 100' of line, etc.
A 3' per minute winch with a snatch block pulls twice as hard, half as fast...IE: 1.5' per minute.
If you are not going to get a great winch...its typically NOT the power that's shy...its the speed.
The cheap, less durable permanent magnet motors draw less current than the faster more durable series wound motors, but might have to run 2-4 x longer per pull due to the slower speed, and they are NOT using 1/2 - 1/4 the current, so, OVERALL, you drain the battery MORE than with the series wound motor for a given pull.
Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go?
Again - a cheap, slow, less durable winch IS better than NO WINCH...so if you can't afford a Jeep, the Yugo WILL get you to work too, etc.
It just comes down to what your time is worth to you on a wheeling trip....if you don't car about losing an hr or more to winch wait, as otherwise you lose the whole day w/no winch, etc...then being in a cheapo slow boat is a better choice than a big bucks speedboat still at the store...and you being stranded.
Frankly - the best compromise out there right now might be the T-Max 10K unit...as its NOT slow, its FAST. It did NOT do well in the shootout (A failure IIRC), but, others I know with them are happy....so for $400 or so, and being fast too, I'd say if going cheap, its a great compromise. I HAVE seen many Harbor Freight and other cheapo winches units fry on the trail...and warns, ramsey, superwinch, etc ALSO fry, just alot less often. So while its not like they don't work, just like with a model truck, etc...the more reliable ones fail, but less, and the less reliable one fail, but more. If you play the odds, the more durable winch will be more durable, and the less durable winches will be less durable....but you could get a lemon of a good winch, or a diamond of a cheap winch, etc...that's the luck of the draw.
The draws themselves make a difference too...if you do not pause and let some winches cool periodically - in the middle of a long pull, they can overheat....if the pulls are easy/short...most winches can handle it...if the pulls are long/hard....the cheaper units tend to have a higher failure rate, and the thermometric units, etc...prevent failure by monitoring their own temperature, and pausing if they need to by themselves essentially, etc.
If going with a cheap winch, also look at the line LENGTH it comes with...less than 100' is often just too short. Competition courses and tight rock formations, etc, can let you use a shorter line length, but for most people, that 100' range is about as short as you want to go...ESPECIALLY if you're going to rely on a snatchblock which HALVES your line length on every pull, etc.
Remember to ADD the extra costs of a snatch block, line extensions, etc....to the cost of a cheap winch that will NEED them to do your recoveries, to see the FULL costs too.
___________________________
And again - the bottom line is that a cheap winch is better than NO WINCH.
A 3' per minute winch with a snatch block pulls twice as hard, half as fast...IE: 1.5' per minute.
If you are not going to get a great winch...its typically NOT the power that's shy...its the speed.
The cheap, less durable permanent magnet motors draw less current than the faster more durable series wound motors, but might have to run 2-4 x longer per pull due to the slower speed, and they are NOT using 1/2 - 1/4 the current, so, OVERALL, you drain the battery MORE than with the series wound motor for a given pull.
Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go?
Again - a cheap, slow, less durable winch IS better than NO WINCH...so if you can't afford a Jeep, the Yugo WILL get you to work too, etc.
It just comes down to what your time is worth to you on a wheeling trip....if you don't car about losing an hr or more to winch wait, as otherwise you lose the whole day w/no winch, etc...then being in a cheapo slow boat is a better choice than a big bucks speedboat still at the store...and you being stranded.
Frankly - the best compromise out there right now might be the T-Max 10K unit...as its NOT slow, its FAST. It did NOT do well in the shootout (A failure IIRC), but, others I know with them are happy....so for $400 or so, and being fast too, I'd say if going cheap, its a great compromise. I HAVE seen many Harbor Freight and other cheapo winches units fry on the trail...and warns, ramsey, superwinch, etc ALSO fry, just alot less often. So while its not like they don't work, just like with a model truck, etc...the more reliable ones fail, but less, and the less reliable one fail, but more. If you play the odds, the more durable winch will be more durable, and the less durable winches will be less durable....but you could get a lemon of a good winch, or a diamond of a cheap winch, etc...that's the luck of the draw.
The draws themselves make a difference too...if you do not pause and let some winches cool periodically - in the middle of a long pull, they can overheat....if the pulls are easy/short...most winches can handle it...if the pulls are long/hard....the cheaper units tend to have a higher failure rate, and the thermometric units, etc...prevent failure by monitoring their own temperature, and pausing if they need to by themselves essentially, etc.
If going with a cheap winch, also look at the line LENGTH it comes with...less than 100' is often just too short. Competition courses and tight rock formations, etc, can let you use a shorter line length, but for most people, that 100' range is about as short as you want to go...ESPECIALLY if you're going to rely on a snatchblock which HALVES your line length on every pull, etc.
Remember to ADD the extra costs of a snatch block, line extensions, etc....to the cost of a cheap winch that will NEED them to do your recoveries, to see the FULL costs too.
___________________________
And again - the bottom line is that a cheap winch is better than NO WINCH.
Last edited by TEEJ; 01-16-2008 at 03:42 AM.
01-16-2008, 05:15 AM
#27
JK Enthusiast
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I pretty much agree with TeeJ about get the best you can afford, it's better than nothing; and more money gets good things.
However, there is one little issue. If you compare line speed and current draw specs, you'll see that slower speed and lower draw ends up being about the same overall power (in amp-hours) as faster speed and higher draw. Consider;
Warn data is hard to come by (and it's not on Warn's web site), but I did find a table from a vendor that gave me (for a XD 9000) the following (at 9000 lb pull); line speed 6.38 fps, current draw 460 amps. This means that pulling 50 ft will take 7.8 minutes. At 460 amps, the power used is (7.8/ 60 * 460) 59.8 amp-hrs.
At the other end of the scale, the Harbor Freight 97352, at 9000 lbs pull has a line speed of 4.5 fps, at a current draw of 290 amps. that 50 ft pull will take 11.1 minutes, and use (11,1/60 * 290) 53 amp-hours.
While both sets of data are probably optimistic, it indicates that while the two winches have very different speeds (the Warn is half again as fast), and very different current draws, they use almost the same total energy. The difference is in how fast they use it. The cheaper one would probably be easier on the stock electrical system, in fact; a lower discharge rate is kinder to everything.
Not to say the $300 or so HF unit is better than the what? $800? Warn; just that one of the trade-offs is speed, but they use about the same overall power.
However, there is one little issue. If you compare line speed and current draw specs, you'll see that slower speed and lower draw ends up being about the same overall power (in amp-hours) as faster speed and higher draw. Consider;
Warn data is hard to come by (and it's not on Warn's web site), but I did find a table from a vendor that gave me (for a XD 9000) the following (at 9000 lb pull); line speed 6.38 fps, current draw 460 amps. This means that pulling 50 ft will take 7.8 minutes. At 460 amps, the power used is (7.8/ 60 * 460) 59.8 amp-hrs.
At the other end of the scale, the Harbor Freight 97352, at 9000 lbs pull has a line speed of 4.5 fps, at a current draw of 290 amps. that 50 ft pull will take 11.1 minutes, and use (11,1/60 * 290) 53 amp-hours.
While both sets of data are probably optimistic, it indicates that while the two winches have very different speeds (the Warn is half again as fast), and very different current draws, they use almost the same total energy. The difference is in how fast they use it. The cheaper one would probably be easier on the stock electrical system, in fact; a lower discharge rate is kinder to everything.
Not to say the $300 or so HF unit is better than the what? $800? Warn; just that one of the trade-offs is speed, but they use about the same overall power.
01-16-2008, 07:28 AM
#29
JK Enthusiast
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Anyone seen any decent pricing on the Warn Powerplant? Seems like the smartest option IMO is to get a bumper that handles it nicely to handle air and winch all in one, but the price is a bit heftier than doing the two separately...
01-16-2008, 09:06 AM
#30
JK Super Freak
I pretty much agree with TeeJ about get the best you can afford, it's better than nothing; and more money gets good things.
However, there is one little issue. If you compare line speed and current draw specs, you'll see that slower speed and lower draw ends up being about the same overall power (in amp-hours) as faster speed and higher draw. Consider;
Warn data is hard to come by (and it's not on Warn's web site), but I did find a table from a vendor that gave me (for a XD 9000) the following (at 9000 lb pull); line speed 6.38 fps, current draw 460 amps. This means that pulling 50 ft will take 7.8 minutes. At 460 amps, the power used is (7.8/ 60 * 460) 59.8 amp-hrs.
At the other end of the scale, the Harbor Freight 97352, at 9000 lbs pull has a line speed of 4.5 fps, at a current draw of 290 amps. that 50 ft pull will take 11.1 minutes, and use (11,1/60 * 290) 53 amp-hours.
While both sets of data are probably optimistic, it indicates that while the two winches have very different speeds (the Warn is half again as fast), and very different current draws, they use almost the same total energy. The difference is in how fast they use it. The cheaper one would probably be easier on the stock electrical system, in fact; a lower discharge rate is kinder to everything.
Not to say the $300 or so HF unit is better than the what? $800? Warn; just that one of the trade-offs is speed, but they use about the same overall power.
However, there is one little issue. If you compare line speed and current draw specs, you'll see that slower speed and lower draw ends up being about the same overall power (in amp-hours) as faster speed and higher draw. Consider;
Warn data is hard to come by (and it's not on Warn's web site), but I did find a table from a vendor that gave me (for a XD 9000) the following (at 9000 lb pull); line speed 6.38 fps, current draw 460 amps. This means that pulling 50 ft will take 7.8 minutes. At 460 amps, the power used is (7.8/ 60 * 460) 59.8 amp-hrs.
At the other end of the scale, the Harbor Freight 97352, at 9000 lbs pull has a line speed of 4.5 fps, at a current draw of 290 amps. that 50 ft pull will take 11.1 minutes, and use (11,1/60 * 290) 53 amp-hours.
While both sets of data are probably optimistic, it indicates that while the two winches have very different speeds (the Warn is half again as fast), and very different current draws, they use almost the same total energy. The difference is in how fast they use it. The cheaper one would probably be easier on the stock electrical system, in fact; a lower discharge rate is kinder to everything.
Not to say the $300 or so HF unit is better than the what? $800? Warn; just that one of the trade-offs is speed, but they use about the same overall power.
Well, its more complicated than that -
Number 1 is that that Harbor freight unit's owner's manual says you can't pull for more than one minute at a time, and then you have to let it cool...so that adds a lot of time.
Number 2 is that that Harbor Freight unit can only pull about 9,000 lb for 15', after that, its load capacity has dropped too low to pull that much weight.
Number 3 is that assuming you -
a) Winch 4.5' (For one minute, and then let it cool), then winch another 4.5' and let it cool, then winch another 4.5' and let it cool, then go another 1.5', and let it cool....to get a 15' pull at 9,000 lb, taking a total of ~ 4 minutes of pulling and 8 minutes of cooling, for a total of 12 minutes of winching to go 15'.
b) Had room to back up 15', and repeat the above process to go another 15', for another 12 minutes.
c) Had room to back up a total of 30', and repeat the above process to go another 15', for another 12 minutes.
d) Had room to back up 45', and repeat the above process to go another 15', for another 12 minutes.
e) Had room to back up 50', and repeat the above process to go another 5', for another 4-5 minutes.
Your total recovery time was roughly 45 minutes, assuming the short cool down was adequate, and that you had the room to keep re-parking/bracing your recovery rig 15' back each time quickly and so forth.
Lets say we brought a snatch block, and line extensions, etc...and could reach the 50" with it....
We might be able to do the entire 50' w/o repositioning...at maybe 3' per minute.....stopping every minute to cool for 2 minutes. (The winch is pulling half the weight, giving a faster spool speed, but the spool speed is twice the recovery speed because of the block...so a faster spool, slower recovery pull, with the block...)
That's about 17 one minute pulls, with 2 minutes between them...so you still have almost ~ one hour recovery.
______________________________________
If we pick a kinder more practical load for the HF unit to yank out, lets say a ~ 6k lb load -
We can maybe avoid the whole repositioning thing, and avoid some heat stress, and increase the line speed to 6.5 fpm....at 230 amps.
So - we hook up to the 50' away rig, and start pulling, maybe 2 minutes, cool 2 minutes, so 13' every ~ 4 minutes...for 50' = more like 15 minutes of recovery.
If I used my Warn 9.5xp for the same pull, it would go about 10.1 fpm for 50' = about 5 minutes of recovery....at 335 amps.
__________________________________________
For a Full 100' pull, w/o having to keep backing up, etc...the Harbor Freight unit is limited to about 4,200 lb...as the power drop off leaves only 4,200 lb of pull left at that full pull's end.
For a full 100' pull, the Warn 9.5xp is still pulling 6,940 lb, able to pull 2,740 pounds more, a lot less power loss with that range, and a much heavier recovery range, etc.
_______________________________________
So - A Harbor Freight is fine for occasional use for a quick pull to get someone unstuck from a small spot...if there were room to play out the line, etc...but would not be the first pick for a situation where more than a quick tug/short recovery is required.
On rocks, this is typically all you need too...a tug to clear a ledge, a pop off a high center, some extra ooph to climb a slick slope, etc.....so its not THAT limiting if that's your terrain.
If your use is 1 minute/short pulls just to clear an obstacle here and there, and you do not repeatedly overheat the unit, it can be pretty reliable for occasional use.
If you do a lot of high load, longer pulls, the unit will fail sooner due to heat damage.
If you get a block/tackle kit for the cheap/weak winch, you can compensate for the loss in power it suffers by playing out more line, and doubling its pull power/halving its speed, etc. Just follow the owner's manual in limiting pulls to no more than one minute at load, and you will greatly increase your odds of survival.
Last edited by TEEJ; 01-16-2008 at 09:22 AM.