snorkels... pros & cons
01-16-2015, 10:36 AM
#111
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Pre-filters aren't all born the same, and so are snorkels. Some function better than others. A well-designed snorkel does a good job at blocking sand before the air filter, but a well designed pre-filter would still be an improvement, especially for the finer dust.
When a snorkel has a "sink", either water or dust are trapped in it. If it doesn't have it, then a pre-filter would do the vast majority of the job.
Attachment 592101
When a snorkel has a "sink", either water or dust are trapped in it. If it doesn't have it, then a pre-filter would do the vast majority of the job.
Attachment 592101
Transport Velocities - To prevent dust form settling and blocking the ductwork, transport velocities should range from 3,500 to 4,000 ft/min for most industrial dust (such as granite, silica flour, limestone, coal, asbestos, and clay) and from 4,000 to 5,000 ft/min for heavy or moist dust, such as lead, cement, and quick lime. The table describes minimum transport velocities for different characteristics of dust.
Material Minimum Design Velocity (fpm)
Very fine, light dusts 2,000
Fine, dry dusts and powders 3,000
Average industrial dusts 3,500
Coarse dusts 4,000 - 4,500
Heavy or moist dust loading 4,500 and up
3.6L V6 with 3” intake tube has Velocity of 4000ft/min to 7000ft/min. I used 350cfm and .8VE. Which is 7000rpm 220ci engine and got 7000fpm.
Or 3" equivalent crossectional area.
Everything is getting sucked in.
I'm bored at work, in a meeting.
Ernie
01-16-2015, 11:30 AM
#112
The real question that i have since ur bringing it up, is a 2.5 micron airborne rubber particle even a concern to an engine? I understand that if they were being dumped by the one gallon bucket into the intake, sure there will be a problem, but just as light dust, in the same volumes that we are breathing them in, does it matter? Wouldnt they just be vaporized during the combustion event?
The wear also depends on the material the dust grains are made of.
Sand dust particle are hard. Think of sand blasting, for instance.
The effectiveness of a pre-filter is pretty high. Typical data, by Donaldson in this case, is that the TopSpin Pre-cleaner filters more than 99% of particles 20 micron and larger.
If the snorkel has a "sink" for the sand dust to settle down, the overall filtering efficiency is increased.
As can be seen in the following illustration (taken from the internet), what we care about is the sand particle size that cyclonic pre-filters take care of:
There are also very small sand particles which are carried by wind across hundreds of miles, but those are again too small to filter.
A few times a year, we get warm southern/eastern wind that makes the sky yellowish -- straight from the Sahara Desert in Africa.
With another wind direction, the French riviera and even Britain, pretty far in Europe, get it:
If an air filter for such small particles was installed on the engine, it would have created too much resistance to air flow.
Last edited by GJeep; 01-16-2015 at 11:35 AM.
01-16-2015, 11:45 AM
#113
Transport Velocities - To prevent dust form settling and blocking the ductwork, transport velocities should range from 3,500 to 4,000 ft/min for most industrial dust (such as granite, silica flour, limestone, coal, asbestos, and clay) and from 4,000 to 5,000 ft/min for heavy or moist dust, such as lead, cement, and quick lime. The table describes minimum transport velocities for different characteristics of dust.
Material Minimum Design Velocity (fpm)
Very fine, light dusts 2,000
Fine, dry dusts and powders 3,000
Average industrial dusts 3,500
Coarse dusts 4,000 - 4,500
Heavy or moist dust loading 4,500 and up
3.6L V6 with 3” intake tube has Velocity of 4000ft/min to 7000ft/min. I used 350cfm and .8VE. Which is 7000rpm 220ci engine and got 7000fpm.
Or 3" equivalent crossectional area.
Everything is getting sucked in.
I'm bored at work, in a meeting.
Ernie
Material Minimum Design Velocity (fpm)
Very fine, light dusts 2,000
Fine, dry dusts and powders 3,000
Average industrial dusts 3,500
Coarse dusts 4,000 - 4,500
Heavy or moist dust loading 4,500 and up
3.6L V6 with 3” intake tube has Velocity of 4000ft/min to 7000ft/min. I used 350cfm and .8VE. Which is 7000rpm 220ci engine and got 7000fpm.
Or 3" equivalent crossectional area.
Everything is getting sucked in.
I'm bored at work, in a meeting.
Ernie
The difference between sand dust that we do want to filter and such dusts, is that sand grains are both relatively large and pretty hard, so they damage engines and/or plug air filters.
'Cyclonic' pre-filters do a good job with such particles at slower air spinning, because the centrifugal force has more effect on the bigger mass of the sand particles.
The vast majority of such sand can and is filtered by the Donaldson and similar principal pre-filters, and a low positioned "sink" in the snorkel improves filtration yet more.
Last edited by GJeep; 01-16-2015 at 01:26 PM.
01-16-2015, 11:53 AM
#114
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That data refers to particles which too small (see my previous post).
The difference between sand dust that we do want to filter and such dusts, is that sand grains are both relatively large and pretty hard, so they damage engines and/or plug air filters.
'Cyclonic' pre-filters do a good job with such particles at slower air spinning, because the centrifugal force has more effect on the bigger mass of the sand particles.
The vast majority of such sand can and is filtered by the Donaldson and similar principal pre-filters, and a low positioned "sink" in the snorkel improves filtration yet more.
The difference between sand dust that we do want to filter and such dusts, is that sand grains are both relatively large and pretty hard, so they damage engines and/or plug air filters.
'Cyclonic' pre-filters do a good job with such particles at slower air spinning, because the centrifugal force has more effect on the bigger mass of the sand particles.
The vast majority of such sand can and is filtered by the Donaldson and similar principal pre-filters, and a low positioned "sink" in the snorkel improves filtration yet more.
Maybe buy 2 Snorkels? You know like dual exhaust.
Happy Jeeping
01-16-2015, 12:01 PM
#115
JK Super Freak
Lately I have grown bored of this forum. It's the same warmed over topic. People think Jeep owners should share a bond just because they own a jeep. Am I arrogant......yes. Did I make a point.....yes. Do I care about earning respect or cred......Not via internet. I keep my ride simple. I found this entertaining....yet still boring. Thanks for the comments. Hope to see you on the trail. This will be my last post. Ernie
01-16-2015, 12:48 PM
#116
JK Freak
The back and forth discussion with data to back it up i find interesting. It would be awesome if we had some real world flow data from a couple of current snorkels to give better insite to restriction and debris induction. Also what level of filter protection is really needed vs restriction to airflow.
01-16-2015, 12:54 PM
#117
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The current folks running the forum arnt as bad as Eddie was about dropping the ban hammer. A highly or overly technical heated discussion is hardly worthy of banning someone. The foul language some are using however may get them some warnings. I just hope it doesnt escalate.
The back and forth discussion with data to back it up i find interesting. It would be awesome if we had some real world flow data from a couple of current snorkels to give better insite to restriction and debris induction. Also what level of filter protection is really needed vs restriction to airflow.
The back and forth discussion with data to back it up i find interesting. It would be awesome if we had some real world flow data from a couple of current snorkels to give better insite to restriction and debris induction. Also what level of filter protection is really needed vs restriction to airflow.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/14-gall...ce-wet-dry-vac
A shop vac has 1/2 the flow of a Jeep V6. It sux up nuts, bolts, and rock. Please someone that owns a Snorkel with a basin.
Try this test out. Apply your shop vac to the Snorkel end that leads into engine. Turn vac on and put sand and rocks and leaves into it.
See if the basin catches anything. Then post your results.
Earth Siege, Hope to see on the trail.
Best of luck with your build. I was kidding about getting banned, I was getting upset.
It has been technical, one sided.
I just like data to back up my builds and purchases. I'm glad I could help you with that UMP filter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pwa7WcYT-k Here a link. But its a TJ.
Last edited by helmet10; 01-16-2015 at 01:06 PM.
01-16-2015, 01:27 PM
#118
JK Super Freak
Damn... I guess I was being to harsh... ok, let me be nicer...
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
01-16-2015, 01:45 PM
#119
Damn... I guess I was being to harsh... ok, let me be nicer...
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
....And, therefore, even the dragonfly he mentioned got caught in the basin, as can be seen here, if watched closely... LOL :
Last edited by GJeep; 01-16-2015 at 02:09 PM.
01-16-2015, 01:48 PM
#120
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Damn... I guess I was being to harsh... ok, let me be nicer...
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
While you are absolutely right about transport velocities, that is assuming a non obstructed path. Fluid dynamics comes into play when transporting particles. A basin expands the pipeline and creates turbulence thus interrupts airflow causing dust/sand to fall. If the basin is deep enough, the velocities as you approach the bottom of the basin will approach 0. So the closer to the floor of the basin, the lower the velocity. So dust settles and there is not enough velocity at the bottom to pick that dust up and send it on its way. From a purist perspective there are three factors that are at play: Mass flow rate, turbulence, and drag associated with air viscosity.
If you watch someone in a kayak paddling up some rapids, they are always do so along the edges of the river where the water is moving slower and not up the middle where the velocities are much higher. With or without obstructions, the velocities will always be slower along the edges due to drag. Interrupt that flow and the velocities drop even more. Broaden the river (basin) the velocities will drop even more. Those same principle applies to snorkels with basins.
I agree with your statement. That is called a boundary layer. At skin surface it's 0.
That is due to friction.
That boundary layer thickness varies with speed.
I read your first post......that was banned.
I was accepted to Embry Riddle in Fla. I could not afford it. So I settled for ME.
You have Lanimar, Plug and Turbulent flow. The Shop Vac test will give you a good idea if your basin is big enough.
Some Snorkels don't have Basins. The Airbox is the final cavity.