frankie945

My bad for the off topic. But us FI junkies love to talk forced induction. Boost is addictive.

mkjeep

Haha, understand.

RIPPMODS

Superchargers as a whole typically deliver better than stock fuel mileage – however the end user sets the bar and expectations of mileage – we use the number 2-4more mpg based on the client feedback – The real world delivers the numbers you receive – As a tech we look at MPG as a give and take… In Wichita (where the original poster is from) there is always high winds and it’s likely the reason he’s not seeing the MPG, additionally his state speed limit is 70mph, which could also mean he’s trying to keep up to traffic and not realizing he’s actually using more pedal regardless of cruise control. Lastly – assuming you are seeing less than average fuel mileage means that your actually using the blower more than you think – Consider that the secondary injection system is only triggered when you’re in boost and to keep your loaded rig at 70mph for 1000- 2000 miles – guess what – you’re in boost and your using fuel, there is your MPG loss. 8 injectors instead of 6.

Power requires fuel, and regardless of the boosting compressor our guess is you’d lose MPG based on your implementation.

If you’re so hard set on re-developing a kit – call up, buy a kit with the proposed changes in mind – make an upgrade kit and sell it as an option – as a smart guy you should understand the consequences of spinning the blower 5 times faster than its designed to go – RIPP has to follow certain parameters set forth by Vortech – spinning a blower, generating heat and pressure outside its “normal” operating parameters is not one of them… We want product to last a long, long time – not wear it out 5 times faster….
You’ve seemed to put several calls into Jack – did you ever consider putting a call into RIPP and perhaps getting their take on it one on one – or is it that you really just want an Avenger kit and are using your technical back ground and expertise to post on JK forums for Jack?
We’re open to input from our clients and we welcome tech calls and try our best to resolve any issues that arise – some are within our scope and other fall beyond – but all the while we care and are open to input…. You’re not inputting, you’re stating facts from your perspective – but only an outsider’s perspective. Your real world evaluation comes from the common knowledge on centrifugal SC’s. We have to consider the big picture… and we only consider the big picture. We have a responsibility to get clients to and from their destination be it near or far… You don’t hear anyone complaining about reliability or concern they can’t take 2000 mile trips over and over and over. As far as mileage goes at this point we’ve “collectively” done 200000 miles – RIPP has new product for 2010 however we keep our mouth shut until its ready… when its ready it will work as advertised – not the promise.
Look forward to it
AN extremely important point that we could not have said better ourselves – this in actuality is the extract thing we try and explain 2500 is where this engine works –
3.8L Town & Country on the highway at 70mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A5-Xgw-OY
3.8L Town & Country on the highway at 80mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-nQ88eUxzY
Look at the tach and look at where Chrysler programmers make the shifts…. JK drivers complain because they hear the engine through the firewall… its seamless in the TC
Cool – thank you
Using headers…. 1) does move the torque around 2) allows us to get more aggressive with timing 3) gives our NA clients hope for more affordable power lastly – reduces back pressure and heat.
1st I do not like the idea of a open bypass valve. Water will enter the engine. In a deep water crossing. And SC's doesn't have a bov. It's a bypass valve. Works totally different then a bov so quit calling it that.
-Not an issue – never will be, its always blowing out and closes very fast… in vacuum. If you need it to be closed YOU can recirc it for your needs –

Secondly if you’re in water as deep as our BOV is you’ve got other issues



2nd. No intercooler
-Chemical intercooling IS intercooling

jkrangler08

i have a ripps blower on my jeep for about 6 months, i love the design, its simple, safe, and makes good power. i have a unlimited with 3.21 so i need all the help i can get! my only issue i the lack of low end torque(i still have to down shift twice if im on a hill) but what do you expect... it isnt a v8.... as for the gas mileage, i installed the ripps and when i babied it i got 17.6, i was hoping to break the 19 mark(no hope with heavy bumper and a roof rack) but when i switched belt back to stock i got 16.2mpg all highway. so here in nc with slight hills i saw a 1.4mpg increase. unfortunately i have to sell my kit. i have a wedding in the future

frankie945

What ever bro. It's my opinion. What about the other things I pointed out. And do you have a pic with a snorkel mounted to your system like you clam it will. Which doesn't matter anyway because the bypass valve is venting to the atmosphere. It only takes a small amount of water to do damage. And the only reason you are adding meth is to deal with the lack of fuel the stock fuel system puts out. Just admit it. I'm not dumb.

You are using the deicer . To make up for fuel Just like adding a 7th injector. Can the ripp supercharger be tuned with no meth??? I bet not cause there is just not enough fuel being delivered. Motor would go knock knock boom. There went my rod.

And Chemical intercooling is way way different then a AIR TO AIR intercooler. A FI newbie should even know that.............

Sorry again for the OT I could not help myself. Trying to get the facts straight.

outside316

In response to RIPP as i am the original poster as we talked the other day the driving conditions really dont matter as the mileage is the same unless the wind is really bad which is typically in the spring & summer. The same vehicle in the same "wind" before the sc had considerably better mileage that is the bottom line & what i have called about previously.

The owner of the RIPPed jk in Boulder while not facing as much wind in highway drives has considerable grades to climb as i am that way several times a year. Based on his numbers he is getting 2-6 mpg better. When dealing with such small numbers anyway, that is a considerable difference.

My point was to get a general idea FROM RIPP OWNERS of there mileage to better understand why mine is so poor. Frankly i drove the highway numerous times last year on I-70 through Colorado before the s/c & for what it is the jeep did fairly well. My point is if i still have to downshift on marginal inclines & get 4mpg less what did i gain? Yes around town the jp feels much better as the rpms go up and down to make better use of the s/c.

Once again i am not knocking RIPP as they have been helpful with trying to figure out the reasons behind my problem i am just slightly frustrated as the reasoning for my purchase was not to race from one stoplight to another around town but to have additional power on trips & avoid the downshifting associated with inclines or wind & to hold the speed better.

RIPPMODS

Dude - you are way way out of line here -

Yes you absolutely can run our system without methanol - 100% it was an option everyone went with and some didn’t…. AND without the meth you can make the same power – we chose meth instead of conventional intercooling for three major reasons;

1) you can spin the blower slower and run more boost (without the air brake of a front mount or water to air)
2) if your off road and going 5-10mph you’ll heat soak a front mount
3) if you go through water/mud you turn your front mount into a skimmer
4) less piping and lines to run or worry about

YOU CAN use whatever fluid you want – YOU can chose to tune which ever way YOU want….. It’s your rig, it’s your set up…. We provide YOU with a working functional system out of the box and with OUR applied theory….no one in the FI world is locked into anything….

For your information the supplemental injectors are twin 650cc injectors with translates to 1300 total divided by 6 (pistons) is an addition 213 per cylinder - add that to the current 300cc injectors and you have over 500cc available under boosted conditions...

You can run a front mount or water to air - you can tune the factory injectors with our system.... We have it set up this way for jeepers who actually go off road - should something go wrong you simply remove the belt and your 100% stock.... get your facts straight!

Issue two.... go to our website type in snorkel - hit the picture and take a look....




The BOV nearly touches the HOOD---- if your that deep in water - then your in DEEP water..... get it?

Fuel mileage is a user variable – every manufacture puts out a average MPG – it would be foolish to try to guess why one is getting more than the other…

If you took a look at the videos of the bone stock Town and Country it would explain the down shift – the engine and transmission programming is designed to shift to the efficiency points in order to keep your vehicle going down the road… the town and country is not moving 35” tires and shaped like a building at 70mph… hence the fuel mileage.

If the system is delivering the power then its delivering the claim, the shift has to do with the calculated load the engine is experiencing… and one has nothing to do with the other.

One and a half gallons of meth typically lasts over 3000 miles as it’s sprayed at a very small rate and only under boosted conditions. We always say – you’ve made a major investment into the power adder… You’re going to keep an eye on it just like anything else, tightening a suspension or setting tire pressures. By design the supplemental injection acts as a intercooler, as the evaporating fuel cools the boost down. The meth brings it down a maximum of 100 degree’s.

You can buy the kit with or without – we made it standard when everyone just added it anyway… if fact we lowered the price to include it and it was well accepted.



We’d like to add we welcome these discussions and the opportunity to debate our experiences and applied technologies. We don’t appreciate being singled out as a bad guy and don’t mean to imply a take it or leave it situation… We’ve designed several kits and have a long list of what not to do… we’ve also installed lots of kits and found weaknesses there as well. No 1 kit is perfect for everyone and one mans opinion is another mans argument – that’s fine… we are presenting proven facts… trucks that run soundly, make power and better fuel mileage, its not easy being everything to everyone but we make sure we give it our all.

If you’re presenting theory - - well, that’s falls under the one mans opinion is another’s argument…

RIPPTECH

tpm152

In defense of Ripp, the methanol injection is a great idea and solution to many of the problems with supercharging. It is a 3 prong attack on knock and running lean. The methanol richens the mixture by adding fuel, it increases the total octane of the mixture to stave off knock since methanol is somewhere around 110 octane, and the vaporization of both the water in the water/meth mixture decreases the intake air charge temp (which once again keeps knock down at the same time as increasing the intake charge density to give more power).

Really the Ripp kit is a beautifully engineered kit, the only reason I am not a fan of it is the RPM range that it delivers power at.

Okay, lets be professional about this and do the math (and not once again start throwing out scary numbers to discourage people from listening to me). I am asking for pressures that you are giving current kits at 2500 RPM at even say as low as 1250 RPM. Assuming that you want the same pressure and output at 1250 rather than 2500 RPM that only requires the blower to be spun at TWICE the speed rather than FIVE times the speed. Now once again if you take into account that then engine consumes less air at 1250 RPM the actual speed you need to spin the blower to get equal torque boost at 1250 RPM that you currently get at 2500 RPM is actually even LESS than twice the speed. This is due to delivering the same pressure at less flow rate (CFM or whatever units you want to use). If you treat the blower like a pump (which it is literally just an air pump) the less flow you have the slower you need to spin it to deliver the same pressure.

So really without busting out my calculator, finding the exact efficiency charts for the vortch supercharger, and taking way too much time out of my day to do the exact math for everyone the approximate range you would need to spin the blower is somewhere between 1.5 and 2 times as fast as the current set-up. Now considering that the current set-up adds approximately 120 horsepower at the flywheel of the engine (after taking out ~20% drivetrain loss resulting in the 240 - 260 RWHP recorded by you guys) by spinning the blower twice as fast (and since centrifugal SC increase generally increase boost as a square of their speed) assuming the very worst case scenario WITHOUT a blow-off valve you would be theoretically able to add 480 horsepower at redline by doubling the SC speed. Add that to the baseline of 205 and at most your looking at a theoretical max very worst case scenario of asking the SC and engine system to delivery 700 horsepower. Looking offhand at the vortech website the V-3 has a theoretical max power output of over 700 horsepower in all cases.

Now I know this is not taking into account many things with the blower, but what I intend to do by this post is just to show that even assuming the VERY worst case scenario the current V-3 blower is well within the ability to deliver the type of boost I am asking to be investigated for future kits.

Finally I know headers can move torque around, but power boost and movement from headers is absolutely NOTHING compared to power from even 2 - 3 PSI boost from a blower. Not to mention in order to incorporate headers while keeping the current cat converters is going to be a nightmare compared to swapping a pulley and reprogramming fuel delivery.

frankie945

methanol acts like a fuel. It does cool intake temps and lowers ur IDC's. You could inject straight distiled water to cool intake temps but that is all it will do. Water/meth burns lowers intake temps and reduces fuel delivery. So say ur running 85% IDC with no meth.add meth and IDC's will drop somewhere around 10% to 15% which then alows you to run more boost hense to aid in fuel delivery and more advanced timing.

With just 300cc injectors you will need water/meth to compensate for the lack of fuel. The factory system produces. I don't see were you are coming up with 500cc extra.
without the use of meth and no aux fuel pump. I bet IDC's are in the 95% range.

Do you have any dyno sheeets handy that were tuned without meth?

Or a trace or log of IDC's on a pull on the dyno. I would really like to know were they are hitting. That is my main concern. 85% max is ideal leaves room.

sorry again I turned this thread upside down. I know the FI world well been there done that to many times. One thing I will admit is I don't know the 3.8 that well.

rcwade

I used to run a turbo car with a BOV which didn't vent back to the atmosphere. It used a MAF system so all the metered air had to make it into the cylinders. A bypass valve runs under a very similar concept. I'm not sure why a previous poster says BOV's and bypass valves operate so different. They don't as far as I know Turbonetics and others even call some of their BOV bypass valves. The differences are simply in HOW the when the actuator closes the valve. It's all a matter of vaccume controlled valves. Superchargers build boost based on RPM not load, Turbos on the other hand build boost based on engine load not rpm. So technically superchargers would need to vent boosted air if you wanted to simply cruise at 3000-4000rpm where a turbo actually wouldn't be building positive pressure due to the exhaust gasses. Superchargers simply need to close the bypass when the vaccume reached a certain point in the intake. This would mean you were trying to draw a bunch of air in and the intake (pre supercharger) and are trying to build boost. An interesting concept would be to build a supercharger which had a clutch similar to the AC system, add a kickdown switch and you could have supercharger on demand. This would reduce parasitic drag on the engine during cruise applications where you really don't need the extra power.