Metalcloak Thread
12-13-2013, 07:06 AM
#601
JK Enthusiast
They say that, and kit wise its probably up there for the most travel out of a kit. They don't have enough flex where the track bar was limiting them... Im going to have the same travel and a 1.5 od straight track bar with am aftermarket dif cover. It will not hit so i would still say its not needed. It raises the rear roll center above where its needed and keeps the front in the stock location after lifting. Id rather have them the same. As for the draglink thats my point it will limit them alot. But a draglink flip should be considered along with a front trackbar raise. They claim there coils help that wich is Nonsense. I also agree no steering stabilizer helps and keeps you more up on maintenance. Im not saying its a bad kit, but i dont feel there the best and only option, especially if you do lots of fab work. Most people dont i get it, but still.
12-13-2013, 07:12 AM
#602
JK Super Freak
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I really shouldn't have looked in here.... lots of misinformation being thrown around.
The rear track bar bracket, in no way, shape, or form, will help increase travel. Sure, the flatter the trackbar, the more linear the travel will be, so at high amonts of travel you will have less pull one direction or the other, BUT given the length of the trackbar, the amount of lateral travel of the axle really isnt an issue. Expecially compared to the control arms. The simple fact is with ANY short arm kit, you will have significant front and rear axle steer with anything at or over 12" of shock travel.
What raising that rear trackbar bracket does is get the roll center (the average height of the trackbar mount points, by which the CG of the vehicle rotates about for that axle) of the rear axle closer to the CG of the vehicle, making the rear more stable in corners on the street, and in off camber situations off road. (YES sway bars and springs/shocks play into this stability as well).
In theory, the rear roll center should be higher than the front by some degree, giving you a positive roll axis (a theoretical line drawn betwen the two roll centers front and rear). The more poitive (higher rear) the more roll understeer (tendancy to steer out of a corner with body roll). The more more neutral or negative, the more roll oversteer (tendancy to steer into a corner).
So back to the MC kit, by raising that rear bracket way up, you really stabilize the rear, but you've drastically changed the way the vehicle will handle a corner. Roll understeer is MUCH more friendly, however, than oversteer, which is downright scary (that would be like flipping and raising the front, and leaving the rear stock high... terrifying to drive). They basically give a high level of rear stability with a little sacrifice of handeling. Flipping the front draglink and raising the front trackbar will give you a higher front roll center, lowering your positive roll axis a bit, giving less understeer. Unless you are running MC flares as well, you can likely get away with 3" of bump, and likely have about 2 in the rear, especially if you've raised the lower rear shock bracket. This will allow you to run 12" ish front shocks and 10.5-11" rear. I would not run any more than this on a short arm kit. Ever.
Now for the bends of the trackbar, they are simply to clear the exhaust and diff of such a high trackbar relocation. BUT, with any bend, you have weakend the tube by the process of bending, and by the fact that the loading is now no longer soely through the center of the tube. Its a stress riser. I would much rather have a solid bar stock trackbar with as little and as subtile bends as possible.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, the MC joints seem to work very nicely and are a great addition to the market. Their springs seem nice as well and can handle lots of travel comfortably. But, it's still a short arm kit working off factory mounts, and is no more or less suseptable to the same exact geometry issues that ANY other short arm kit is. Their shocks, while providing gobs of travel, only really work if you run their fenders. Otherwise, you will end up over bump-stoping and limiting them, or have to work with moving around shock mounts. So if you buy the MC kit for the joints and springs, then thats respectable. But beyond that, everything else is just really clever marketing, or you are working outside of the relm of a "bolt on kit" to actually get back some useful performance.
I really don't see what the problem is with the rear track bar bracket. The MC lift kit was designed to give the greatest amount of Flex with a short arm 3.5inch lift. The rear bracket gives you more travel & the Curve in the Rear trackBar is there to clear your rear diff especially if you are running a aftermarket diff cover. If you add a Draglink flip kit in the front you have to run 3 inch bump stops witch in turn you lose Flex.... I just choose MC because it truly is a great lift kit & design.
What raising that rear trackbar bracket does is get the roll center (the average height of the trackbar mount points, by which the CG of the vehicle rotates about for that axle) of the rear axle closer to the CG of the vehicle, making the rear more stable in corners on the street, and in off camber situations off road. (YES sway bars and springs/shocks play into this stability as well).
In theory, the rear roll center should be higher than the front by some degree, giving you a positive roll axis (a theoretical line drawn betwen the two roll centers front and rear). The more poitive (higher rear) the more roll understeer (tendancy to steer out of a corner with body roll). The more more neutral or negative, the more roll oversteer (tendancy to steer into a corner).
So back to the MC kit, by raising that rear bracket way up, you really stabilize the rear, but you've drastically changed the way the vehicle will handle a corner. Roll understeer is MUCH more friendly, however, than oversteer, which is downright scary (that would be like flipping and raising the front, and leaving the rear stock high... terrifying to drive). They basically give a high level of rear stability with a little sacrifice of handeling. Flipping the front draglink and raising the front trackbar will give you a higher front roll center, lowering your positive roll axis a bit, giving less understeer. Unless you are running MC flares as well, you can likely get away with 3" of bump, and likely have about 2 in the rear, especially if you've raised the lower rear shock bracket. This will allow you to run 12" ish front shocks and 10.5-11" rear. I would not run any more than this on a short arm kit. Ever.
Now for the bends of the trackbar, they are simply to clear the exhaust and diff of such a high trackbar relocation. BUT, with any bend, you have weakend the tube by the process of bending, and by the fact that the loading is now no longer soely through the center of the tube. Its a stress riser. I would much rather have a solid bar stock trackbar with as little and as subtile bends as possible.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, the MC joints seem to work very nicely and are a great addition to the market. Their springs seem nice as well and can handle lots of travel comfortably. But, it's still a short arm kit working off factory mounts, and is no more or less suseptable to the same exact geometry issues that ANY other short arm kit is. Their shocks, while providing gobs of travel, only really work if you run their fenders. Otherwise, you will end up over bump-stoping and limiting them, or have to work with moving around shock mounts. So if you buy the MC kit for the joints and springs, then thats respectable. But beyond that, everything else is just really clever marketing, or you are working outside of the relm of a "bolt on kit" to actually get back some useful performance.
12-13-2013, 07:13 AM
#603
JK Enthusiast
If I wasn't going to use Metal Cloaks rear track bar I definitely wouldn't use their bracket. I could see were your problem is if you are trying to use it with a different track bar.
12-13-2013, 07:20 AM
#604
JK Jedi
I really shouldn't have looked in here.... lots of misinformation being thrown around.
The rear track bar bracket, in no way, shape, or form, will help increase travel. Sure, the flatter the trackbar, the more linear the travel will be, so at high amonts of travel you will have less pull one direction or the other, BUT given the length of the trackbar, the amount of lateral travel of the axle really isnt an issue. Expecially compared to the control arms. The simple fact is with ANY short arm kit, you will have significant front and rear axle steer with anything at or over 12" of shock travel.
What raising that rear trackbar bracket does is get the roll center (the average height of the trackbar mount points, by which the CG of the vehicle rotates about for that axle) of the rear axle closer to the CG of the vehicle, making the rear more stable in corners on the street, and in off camber situations off road. (YES sway bars and springs/shocks play into this stability as well).
In theory, the rear roll center should be higher than the front by some degree, giving you a positive roll axis (a theoretical line drawn betwen the two roll centers front and rear). The more poitive (higher rear) the more roll understeer (tendancy to steer out of a corner with body roll). The more more neutral or negative, the more roll oversteer (tendancy to steer into a corner).
So back to the MC kit, by raising that rear bracket way up, you really stabilize the rear, but you've drastically changed the way the vehicle will handle a corner. Roll understeer is MUCH more friendly, however, than oversteer, which is downright scary (that would be like flipping and raising the front, and leaving the rear stock high... terrifying to drive). They basically give a high level of rear stability with a little sacrifice of handeling. Flipping the front draglink and raising the front trackbar will give you a higher front roll center, lowering your positive roll axis a bit, giving less understeer. Unless you are running MC flares as well, you can likely get away with 3" of bump, and likely have about 2 in the rear, especially if you've raised the lower rear shock bracket. This will allow you to run 12" ish front shocks and 10.5-11" rear. I would not run any more than this on a short arm kit. Ever.
Now for the bends of the trackbar, they are simply to clear the exhaust and diff of such a high trackbar relocation. BUT, with any bend, you have weakend the tube by the process of bending, and by the fact that the loading is now no longer soely through the center of the tube. Its a stress riser. I would much rather have a solid bar stock trackbar with as little and as subtile bends as possible.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, the MC joints seem to work very nicely and are a great addition to the market. Their springs seem nice as well and can handle lots of travel comfortably. But, it's still a short arm kit working off factory mounts, and is no more or less suseptable to the same exact geometry issues that ANY other short arm kit is. Their shocks, while providing gobs of travel, only really work if you run their fenders. Otherwise, you will end up over bump-stoping and limiting them, or have to work with moving around shock mounts. So if you buy the MC kit for the joints and springs, then thats respectable. But beyond that, everything else is just really clever marketing, or you are working outside of the relm of a "bolt on kit" to actually get back some useful performance.
The rear track bar bracket, in no way, shape, or form, will help increase travel. Sure, the flatter the trackbar, the more linear the travel will be, so at high amonts of travel you will have less pull one direction or the other, BUT given the length of the trackbar, the amount of lateral travel of the axle really isnt an issue. Expecially compared to the control arms. The simple fact is with ANY short arm kit, you will have significant front and rear axle steer with anything at or over 12" of shock travel.
What raising that rear trackbar bracket does is get the roll center (the average height of the trackbar mount points, by which the CG of the vehicle rotates about for that axle) of the rear axle closer to the CG of the vehicle, making the rear more stable in corners on the street, and in off camber situations off road. (YES sway bars and springs/shocks play into this stability as well).
In theory, the rear roll center should be higher than the front by some degree, giving you a positive roll axis (a theoretical line drawn betwen the two roll centers front and rear). The more poitive (higher rear) the more roll understeer (tendancy to steer out of a corner with body roll). The more more neutral or negative, the more roll oversteer (tendancy to steer into a corner).
So back to the MC kit, by raising that rear bracket way up, you really stabilize the rear, but you've drastically changed the way the vehicle will handle a corner. Roll understeer is MUCH more friendly, however, than oversteer, which is downright scary (that would be like flipping and raising the front, and leaving the rear stock high... terrifying to drive). They basically give a high level of rear stability with a little sacrifice of handeling. Flipping the front draglink and raising the front trackbar will give you a higher front roll center, lowering your positive roll axis a bit, giving less understeer. Unless you are running MC flares as well, you can likely get away with 3" of bump, and likely have about 2 in the rear, especially if you've raised the lower rear shock bracket. This will allow you to run 12" ish front shocks and 10.5-11" rear. I would not run any more than this on a short arm kit. Ever.
Now for the bends of the trackbar, they are simply to clear the exhaust and diff of such a high trackbar relocation. BUT, with any bend, you have weakend the tube by the process of bending, and by the fact that the loading is now no longer soely through the center of the tube. Its a stress riser. I would much rather have a solid bar stock trackbar with as little and as subtile bends as possible.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, the MC joints seem to work very nicely and are a great addition to the market. Their springs seem nice as well and can handle lots of travel comfortably. But, it's still a short arm kit working off factory mounts, and is no more or less suseptable to the same exact geometry issues that ANY other short arm kit is. Their shocks, while providing gobs of travel, only really work if you run their fenders. Otherwise, you will end up over bump-stoping and limiting them, or have to work with moving around shock mounts. So if you buy the MC kit for the joints and springs, then thats respectable. But beyond that, everything else is just really clever marketing, or you are working outside of the relm of a "bolt on kit" to actually get back some useful performance.
As for my exhaust and dif cover i believe it will fit based on my mock up and forklift run, its hoipefully going on this weekend. my exhaust dumpt right behind my axle. No bends and 1.5"od x 1/4 wall.
12-13-2013, 07:26 AM
#605
JK Enthusiast
I really shouldn't have looked in here.... lots of misinformation being thrown around. The rear track bar bracket, in no way, shape, or form, will help increase travel. Sure, the flatter the trackbar, the more linear the travel will be, so at high amonts of travel you will have less pull one direction or the other, BUT given the length of the trackbar, the amount of lateral travel of the axle really isnt an issue. Expecially compared to the control arms. The simple fact is with ANY short arm kit, you will have significant front and rear axle steer with anything at or over 12" of shock travel. What raising that rear trackbar bracket does is get the roll center (the average height of the trackbar mount points, by which the CG of the vehicle rotates about for that axle) of the rear axle closer to the CG of the vehicle, making the rear more stable in corners on the street, and in off camber situations off road. (YES sway bars and springs/shocks play into this stability as well). In theory, the rear roll center should be higher than the front by some degree, giving you a positive roll axis (a theoretical line drawn betwen the two roll centers front and rear). The more poitive (higher rear) the more roll understeer (tendancy to steer out of a corner with body roll). The more more neutral or negative, the more roll oversteer (tendancy to steer into a corner). So back to the MC kit, by raising that rear bracket way up, you really stabilize the rear, but you've drastically changed the way the vehicle will handle a corner. Roll understeer is MUCH more friendly, however, than oversteer, which is downright scary (that would be like flipping and raising the front, and leaving the rear stock high... terrifying to drive). They basically give a high level of rear stability with a little sacrifice of handeling. Flipping the front draglink and raising the front trackbar will give you a higher front roll center, lowering your positive roll axis a bit, giving less understeer. Unless you are running MC flares as well, you can likely get away with 3" of bump, and likely have about 2 in the rear, especially if you've raised the lower rear shock bracket. This will allow you to run 12" ish front shocks and 10.5-11" rear. I would not run any more than this on a short arm kit. Ever. Now for the bends of the trackbar, they are simply to clear the exhaust and diff of such a high trackbar relocation. BUT, with any bend, you have weakend the tube by the process of bending, and by the fact that the loading is now no longer soely through the center of the tube. Its a stress riser. I would much rather have a solid bar stock trackbar with as little and as subtile bends as possible. I've said it before, I'll say it again, the MC joints seem to work very nicely and are a great addition to the market. Their springs seem nice as well and can handle lots of travel comfortably. But, it's still a short arm kit working off factory mounts, and is no more or less suseptable to the same exact geometry issues that ANY other short arm kit is. Their shocks, while providing gobs of travel, only really work if you run their fenders. Otherwise, you will end up over bump-stoping and limiting them, or have to work with moving around shock mounts. So if you buy the MC kit for the joints and springs, then thats respectable. But beyond that, everything else is just really clever marketing, or you are working outside of the relm of a "bolt on kit" to actually get back some useful performance.
12-13-2013, 07:26 AM
#606
JK Jedi
Also going back to the mc coatings. Matson says the coatings are fine. Im assuming the bracket and arms are different materials or ones hardened so that would explain there look on the same coating. Im waiting to hear back.
12-13-2013, 07:32 AM
#607
JK Super Freak
Join Date: Jan 2010
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I've bent both my front and rear trackbar. Front from side impact on the axle, bent at the manufacturers clearance bend, rear because it smacked a rock. 1.5" DOM (I think 0.188" wall).
I believe the coating is just a zinc surface treatment. Similar to how currie treats their JJ housings.
Last edited by JKred; 12-13-2013 at 08:17 AM.
12-13-2013, 07:35 AM
#608
JK Enthusiast
12-13-2013, 07:36 AM
#609
JK Jedi
He said its a gold chromate, but im pretty sure its just a yellow zinc coating as found on grade 8 fasteners typically as well as many other things. Its not bad, but can still rust with salt, but what cant in all reality...I should have realized they were different materials as ive seen that same coating on many differnt materials and it varies greatly. Im more so just trying to correct what I said earlier.