Lift and Articulation question...
12-07-2007, 11:17 AM
#1
JK Junkie
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Lift and Articulation question...
If you put a lift on, it should increase your articulation? Correct?
If you put on a lift but don't disconnect your sway bars, do you still get more articulation or would it still be the same?
Inquiring minds of a newbie want to know.......
If you put on a lift but don't disconnect your sway bars, do you still get more articulation or would it still be the same?
Inquiring minds of a newbie want to know.......
12-07-2007, 11:28 AM
#2
JK Freak
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hmmm, well that depends on a few things, Mainly, longer shocks increase articulation, or actually shocks with greater travel, if you're just running a budget boost and no shock extensions then there'll be no increase in articulation but increase in ground clearance. with the extensions still no increase in articulation or amount of travel, but the tires will droop more but tuck less... i hope that makes sense. Basically if you're stock shocks allow for 10 inches of travel, a budget boost without extensions will only allow 10 inches of travel and will tuck just as high and droop just as low as factory unless you added extended bumpstops, then you wont be able to tuck as high. With shock extensions, you'll sill only get 10 inches of travel, but they should tuck up not as far and droop a little lower, essenstially lowering your entire range of travel. Now as for the sway bar issue.... if you're talking about the front, there will be minimal to no difference still hooked up because of how stout the front sway bar is, in the rear, its made to flex and there should be increased articulation. i hope that helps
Last edited by yellowjeeper85; 12-07-2007 at 11:32 AM.
12-07-2007, 11:30 AM
#3
The proper answer is "it depends".
Generally the ultimate limiter is the shocks. Of course, you don't want to rely on them to do the stopping for you as that does nasty stuff to the pistons. So we use bump stops and limit straps to stop the axle motion just shy of killing the shock.
So, if your kit includes shocks that are longer than the ones you took out, you have the potential of adding more articulation. Of course the rest of the kit needs to provide for it.
As for sway bars, they are designed to limit side to side axle travel, so any sway bar will prevent your maximum travel. Again, how much is a factor of how the changes play. And in this case the weight of the new tire may add some travel as it puts more stress on the sway bar.
In the CJ and YJ era, a lot of us just removed the swaybar. With coils, that isn't very advisable, but you could drive it that way - I would not recommend it. Use a disconect or get the Rubi.
Generally the ultimate limiter is the shocks. Of course, you don't want to rely on them to do the stopping for you as that does nasty stuff to the pistons. So we use bump stops and limit straps to stop the axle motion just shy of killing the shock.
So, if your kit includes shocks that are longer than the ones you took out, you have the potential of adding more articulation. Of course the rest of the kit needs to provide for it.
As for sway bars, they are designed to limit side to side axle travel, so any sway bar will prevent your maximum travel. Again, how much is a factor of how the changes play. And in this case the weight of the new tire may add some travel as it puts more stress on the sway bar.
In the CJ and YJ era, a lot of us just removed the swaybar. With coils, that isn't very advisable, but you could drive it that way - I would not recommend it. Use a disconect or get the Rubi.
12-07-2007, 12:02 PM
#4
JK Freak
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The proper answer is "it depends".
Generally the ultimate limiter is the shocks. Of course, you don't want to rely on them to do the stopping for you as that does nasty stuff to the pistons. So we use bump stops and limit straps to stop the axle motion just shy of killing the shock.
So, if your kit includes shocks that are longer than the ones you took out, you have the potential of adding more articulation. Of course the rest of the kit needs to provide for it.
As for sway bars, they are designed to limit side to side axle travel, so any sway bar will prevent your maximum travel. Again, how much is a factor of how the changes play. And in this case the weight of the new tire may add some travel as it puts more stress on the sway bar.
In the CJ and YJ era, a lot of us just removed the swaybar. With coils, that isn't very advisable, but you could drive it that way - I would not recommend it. Use a disconect or get the Rubi.
Generally the ultimate limiter is the shocks. Of course, you don't want to rely on them to do the stopping for you as that does nasty stuff to the pistons. So we use bump stops and limit straps to stop the axle motion just shy of killing the shock.
So, if your kit includes shocks that are longer than the ones you took out, you have the potential of adding more articulation. Of course the rest of the kit needs to provide for it.
As for sway bars, they are designed to limit side to side axle travel, so any sway bar will prevent your maximum travel. Again, how much is a factor of how the changes play. And in this case the weight of the new tire may add some travel as it puts more stress on the sway bar.
In the CJ and YJ era, a lot of us just removed the swaybar. With coils, that isn't very advisable, but you could drive it that way - I would not recommend it. Use a disconect or get the Rubi.
i beleive you're thinking of tracbars, they are designed to keep the axle centered, i.e. prevent side to side travel of the axle, the sway bar prevents body roll and helps to keep wheels on both sides of the vehicle equidistant from the body.
12-07-2007, 12:18 PM
#5
You will also be limited by your control arms. Depending on the type of bushing, you will be limited. If you stay with stock control arms, you really do not get an increase in articulation.
12-07-2007, 12:27 PM
#6
JK Super Freak
Articulation is really all about trying to keep your tires on the ground...and the truck itself level....to maximize traction, and stability.
A perfect suspension would allow the tires to go up and down as much as needed to reach the ground and find traction, hold the frame up high enough to clear all obstacles, all while the truck stayed dead level.
As a practical consideration, a suspension stiff enough to support the truck at a sufficient ride height, will have trouble compressing enough to stuff a tire all the way, and therefore, will tip the truck away from the stuffed side...
If the uphill tire is the one that can't stuff enough, it means the truck is being tilted down towards the downhill side...and, its more likely to roll over, etc.
The taller the truck, the higher its center of gravity (COG).
So, all the extra ground clearance also makes the COG higher....making the truck more tippy.
Extra wheel travel allows the tires to follow the terrain.
Wheel travel is comprised of up travel (Stuffage or compression), and down travel (Droop or extension).
A coil sprung live axle, all by itself, has almost limitless wheel travel....
...If the damn thing didn't also act to hold the frame up.
So - there are brake lines, diff breathers, a frame, drive shafts, fenders, shocks, and coils, etc...all connecting the axle to the frame.
To allow it to move as freely as possible, you need to get the other crap out of its way, and make some slack in the lines, etc.
If you droop the left tire, the right tire is now tilted up and in at the frame...a spacer might be used to nmake enough room for it to clear, or a rim with less BS, etc.
And so forth.
If a shock is long enough to allow full droop, it might not be able to compress enough to ALSO allow full stuffage. Figure the shock body contains the piston rod....so the maximum droop is pretty much the total of their lengths, and, conversely, their MINIMUM length is pretty much the length of the longest part. (Their TOTAL travel is the difference between the shock eye's centers when fully compressed, and fully extended)
So, you might go over some whoop de doops, or drop off a stair step, etc...and the truck might bounce down, compressing your suspension, and, if the shock can't get that small, it can bend/break the shock....and when bouncing back up again, it might pull the shock more than it can stretch, and break the shock/pull the piston out of the body, etc...or any of those can break the shock mounts instead, etc.
Anti-sway bars attach the axle to the frame, to stabilize the frame against the axle......disconnecting the sway bars allows more freedom of movement.
As far as the coils go...they ONLY slow Up Travel...gradually working at stopping it as the weight of the truck compresses the coil. (And finally stopping it at the desired stuffage or ride height with any luck...)
The coils do very little as far as down travel, as the axle will drop due to gravity and the weight of the tires, drive shaft, and the leverage of the OTHER side of the axle being raised, etc.
Once the coil is unweighting, its not really pushing the axle down, that occurs at stuffage down to a few inches taller than ride height...and essentially starts to dissapear as the coil is more than 2/3 extended (Depending upon the spring rate, etc...)
If your coils are too long, the axle might be able to stuff enough to pack the coil into a cylinder, and then bend the cylinder, possibly bending/damaging the coil, etc.
If the coils are too stiff, the jeep is tilted up when a tire is ramping up, instead of just the tire coming up, and the jeep staying level, etc.
If the coils are too soft, the jeep rides low, and may also have a hard time keeping the jeep from tipping towards a low side, or make the handling a bit wishy washy, etc.
There are MANY other factors that go into articulation....but, if you consider just the above, you will have a big headstart.
Summary of Shock/Coil Parts Above:
1) Shocks need to be able to COMPRESS short enough to allow full stuffage.
2) Shocks need to EXTEND long enough to allow full droop.
3) Coils need to be firm enough to support the weight of the jeep at the height you want.
4) Coils need to be soft enough to allow full stuffage.
5) Coils need to be short enough to allow full stuffage.
6) Coils need to be long enough to allow the desired ride height.
Hope that helps!
A perfect suspension would allow the tires to go up and down as much as needed to reach the ground and find traction, hold the frame up high enough to clear all obstacles, all while the truck stayed dead level.
As a practical consideration, a suspension stiff enough to support the truck at a sufficient ride height, will have trouble compressing enough to stuff a tire all the way, and therefore, will tip the truck away from the stuffed side...
If the uphill tire is the one that can't stuff enough, it means the truck is being tilted down towards the downhill side...and, its more likely to roll over, etc.
The taller the truck, the higher its center of gravity (COG).
So, all the extra ground clearance also makes the COG higher....making the truck more tippy.
Extra wheel travel allows the tires to follow the terrain.
Wheel travel is comprised of up travel (Stuffage or compression), and down travel (Droop or extension).
A coil sprung live axle, all by itself, has almost limitless wheel travel....
...If the damn thing didn't also act to hold the frame up.
So - there are brake lines, diff breathers, a frame, drive shafts, fenders, shocks, and coils, etc...all connecting the axle to the frame.
To allow it to move as freely as possible, you need to get the other crap out of its way, and make some slack in the lines, etc.
If you droop the left tire, the right tire is now tilted up and in at the frame...a spacer might be used to nmake enough room for it to clear, or a rim with less BS, etc.
And so forth.
If a shock is long enough to allow full droop, it might not be able to compress enough to ALSO allow full stuffage. Figure the shock body contains the piston rod....so the maximum droop is pretty much the total of their lengths, and, conversely, their MINIMUM length is pretty much the length of the longest part. (Their TOTAL travel is the difference between the shock eye's centers when fully compressed, and fully extended)
So, you might go over some whoop de doops, or drop off a stair step, etc...and the truck might bounce down, compressing your suspension, and, if the shock can't get that small, it can bend/break the shock....and when bouncing back up again, it might pull the shock more than it can stretch, and break the shock/pull the piston out of the body, etc...or any of those can break the shock mounts instead, etc.
Anti-sway bars attach the axle to the frame, to stabilize the frame against the axle......disconnecting the sway bars allows more freedom of movement.
As far as the coils go...they ONLY slow Up Travel...gradually working at stopping it as the weight of the truck compresses the coil. (And finally stopping it at the desired stuffage or ride height with any luck...)
The coils do very little as far as down travel, as the axle will drop due to gravity and the weight of the tires, drive shaft, and the leverage of the OTHER side of the axle being raised, etc.
Once the coil is unweighting, its not really pushing the axle down, that occurs at stuffage down to a few inches taller than ride height...and essentially starts to dissapear as the coil is more than 2/3 extended (Depending upon the spring rate, etc...)
If your coils are too long, the axle might be able to stuff enough to pack the coil into a cylinder, and then bend the cylinder, possibly bending/damaging the coil, etc.
If the coils are too stiff, the jeep is tilted up when a tire is ramping up, instead of just the tire coming up, and the jeep staying level, etc.
If the coils are too soft, the jeep rides low, and may also have a hard time keeping the jeep from tipping towards a low side, or make the handling a bit wishy washy, etc.
There are MANY other factors that go into articulation....but, if you consider just the above, you will have a big headstart.
Summary of Shock/Coil Parts Above:
1) Shocks need to be able to COMPRESS short enough to allow full stuffage.
2) Shocks need to EXTEND long enough to allow full droop.
3) Coils need to be firm enough to support the weight of the jeep at the height you want.
4) Coils need to be soft enough to allow full stuffage.
5) Coils need to be short enough to allow full stuffage.
6) Coils need to be long enough to allow the desired ride height.
Hope that helps!
Last edited by TEEJ; 12-07-2007 at 12:32 PM.
12-07-2007, 12:29 PM
#7
JK Super Freak
Many have noted that the stock articulation range makes longer arms on the JK not as useful as on the TJ, due to the JK coming with longer arms from the factory.
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12-07-2007, 12:31 PM
#8
JK Freak
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I'm sorry but i have to beg the differ with you here a bit... while longer control arms and hiem joints will alow for more flex you can't honestly say that an aftermarket suspension on stock control arms will only articulate as well as as a stock suspension. granted the factory arms and bushings will not be capable of any extra flex themselves, the fact is, that with stock shocks and springs, the flex ability of the stock arm bushings is limited way before the bushings reach they're potential. I've lifted many vehicles in the past, including my JK, and the fact remains, that even with the stock arms on my JK, it articulates much better than stock.
12-07-2007, 12:32 PM
#9
This is not correct, as you can increase articulation by the means mentioned previously, with stock arms....but, longer arms can get you MORE articulation, when combined with the same principles.
Many have noted that the stock articulation range makes longer arms on the JK not as useful as on the TJ, due to the JK coming with longer arms from the factory.
Many have noted that the stock articulation range makes longer arms on the JK not as useful as on the TJ, due to the JK coming with longer arms from the factory.
Last edited by IGOFSHN; 12-07-2007 at 12:34 PM.
12-07-2007, 12:33 PM
#10
I'm sorry but i have to beg the differ with you here a bit... while longer control arms and hiem joints will alow for more flex you can't honestly say that an aftermarket suspension on stock control arms will only articulate as well as as a stock suspension. granted the factory arms and bushings will not be capable of any extra flex themselves, the fact is, that with stock shocks and springs, the flex ability of the stock arm bushings is limited way before the bushings reach they're potential. I've lifted many vehicles in the past, including my JK, and the fact remains, that even with the stock arms on my JK, it articulates much better than stock.