How big of winch do I need?
12-05-2009, 09:07 PM
#31
JK Junkie
ok. I see it now. Hmm. I wonder if they'll substitute a synthet line on that winch.
Is a Warn M8000 with steel cable at $540 worth the money over Smittybilt 10,000 synthetic line at $510.
Here's another question for all: if you have an 8000# winch and use the snatch block often to double capacity, is the load per inch on the line exceed the 8000#? (I'm wondering if I should spring for the 10,000# line even though the winch is 8,000#.)
12-06-2009, 04:06 AM
#32
JK Super Freak
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ok. I see it now. Hmm. I wonder if they'll substitute a synthet line on that winch.
Is a Warn M8000 with steel cable at $540 worth the money over Smittybilt 10,000 synthetic line at $510.
Here's another question for all: if you have an 8000# winch and use the snatch block often to double capacity, is the load per inch on the line exceed the 8000#? (I'm wondering if I should spring for the 10,000# line even though the winch is 8,000#.)
Is a Warn M8000 with steel cable at $540 worth the money over Smittybilt 10,000 synthetic line at $510.
Here's another question for all: if you have an 8000# winch and use the snatch block often to double capacity, is the load per inch on the line exceed the 8000#? (I'm wondering if I should spring for the 10,000# line even though the winch is 8,000#.)
Upgrading or replacing a cheaper winch a couple years down the road will cost you far more than 2 or 3 hundred dollars.
When you're using a snatch block for a double-line pull, the load on each seciton of the line is no higher than the winch's single-line pulling capacity. The area that sees more load is the snatch block and tree saver and shackle that it is attached to.
12-06-2009, 04:46 AM
#33
JK Junkie
With the Smittybilt, you'd be spending more money on the line and less money on the winch. You can easily upgrade a Warn at a later date with a synthetic line - it'll cost you between 2 and 3 hundred dollars.
Upgrading or replacing a cheaper winch a couple years down the road will cost you far more than 2 or 3 hundred dollars.
Upgrading or replacing a cheaper winch a couple years down the road will cost you far more than 2 or 3 hundred dollars.
When you're using a snatch block for a double-line pull, the load on each seciton of the line is no higher than the winch's single-line pulling capacity. The area that sees more load is the snatch block and tree saver and shackle that it is attached to.
I'm keeping in mind the loss due to the line being wound on the spool, say 20% or so.
when I go to use my shiny new winch, I'm clearly going to use my new snatch block too. I understand that this makes THE WINCH LOAD HALF, OR 5000LBS, but since we dragging out a 10,000 rig does the line need to be rated for 10,000 or is the load cut in half & spread out such that no single component (winch, line or pulley) ever has 10000lbs?
(as I type that, I think that is exactly what happens: the 10k is divided equally & spread to all parts.)
12-06-2009, 05:01 AM
#34
JK Super Freak
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Your line needs to be rated to the maximum pull rating of your winch.
Even with a snatch block, your winch will not be able to exert force on the line greater than it's pull rating.
Keep in mind that there are two lines running from the snatch block to your Jeep.
If your winch is pulling on the line at 5000 pounds, then the first leg of the line is pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds. Also, the second leg of the line will be pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds, and the second leg of the line will be pulling on the front bumper of your JK at 5000 pounds.
This means that:
Total pull on the snatch block = 10,000 pounds
Total pull on your JK = 10,000 pounds (half on the winch, half on a tow point)
Total pull on each section of the line = 5,000 pounds
All of this is very easy to wrap your head around if you have a good physics background. Without that, it can take a while.
If you do have some physics background, remember that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and that the sum of all the vectors is zero.
Also, if you want an idea of how much pull will be needed to free your JK from various situations, take a look at post #10 in this thread. I've detailed how much of a pull (based on multiples of loaded vehicle weight) will be needed for each situation. Also, count on a 30% drop in winch pull rating when you've got a lot of line on the drum, not 20%.
If you plan for a really bad situation, you'll be pleaseantly surprised when things are only halfway bad. If you plan for halfway bad, you'll be walking when things go really bad.
Even with a snatch block, your winch will not be able to exert force on the line greater than it's pull rating.
Keep in mind that there are two lines running from the snatch block to your Jeep.
If your winch is pulling on the line at 5000 pounds, then the first leg of the line is pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds. Also, the second leg of the line will be pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds, and the second leg of the line will be pulling on the front bumper of your JK at 5000 pounds.
This means that:
Total pull on the snatch block = 10,000 pounds
Total pull on your JK = 10,000 pounds (half on the winch, half on a tow point)
Total pull on each section of the line = 5,000 pounds
All of this is very easy to wrap your head around if you have a good physics background. Without that, it can take a while.
If you do have some physics background, remember that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and that the sum of all the vectors is zero.
Also, if you want an idea of how much pull will be needed to free your JK from various situations, take a look at post #10 in this thread. I've detailed how much of a pull (based on multiples of loaded vehicle weight) will be needed for each situation. Also, count on a 30% drop in winch pull rating when you've got a lot of line on the drum, not 20%.
If you plan for a really bad situation, you'll be pleaseantly surprised when things are only halfway bad. If you plan for halfway bad, you'll be walking when things go really bad.
Last edited by w squared; 12-06-2009 at 05:11 AM.
12-06-2009, 05:18 AM
#35
JK Junkie
If your winch is pulling on the line at 5000 pounds, then the first leg of the line is pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds. Also, the second leg of the line will be pulling on the snatch block at 5000 pounds, and the second leg of the line will be pulling on the front bumper of your JK at 5000 pounds.
This means that:
Total pull on the snatch block = 10,000 pounds
Total pull on your JK = 10,000 pounds (half on the winch, half on a tow point)
Total pull on each section of the line = 5,000 pounds
Also, if you want an idea of how much pull will be needed to free your JK from various situations, take a look at post #10 in this thread. I've detailed how much of a pull (based on multiples of loaded vehicle weight) will be needed for each situation. Also, count on a 30% drop in winch pull rating when you've got a lot of line on the drum, not 20%.
thanks for taking the time to talk this through with me. oh, and the info in post #10 is great. that's what got me to first bookmark this thread before I completely hi-jacked it! LOL
12-07-2009, 11:30 AM
#36
JK Junkie
I posted a detailed reply located here on this topic that I wanted to show in both threads:
I did speak to someone very high up at Warn regarding our debate. I asked for FACTS about what makes a Warn, well, a Warn. In summary, here's what he said:
Warn winches are lab tested to ensure that they actually pull to AND AT their claimed load rating. They have their own standards (there aren't industry standards on this). They have to pull at full load for x number of feet.
Another huge Warn selling point is that its brakes are unique. The brakes are designed to hold up to full load. A handy feature when hanging by a thread up a steep hill!
There was much more, but those were the big ones.
Oh, and he also talked me out of synthetic lines for general use because of their weakness if dragged/rubbed along something.
He gave me an example that he lived to tell about:
He was getting winched up a steep rocky area. His rig slid sideways a bit which dragged the line over a rock and also changed where the cable was now running! He said a synthetic line would have snapped under that condition, LETTING HIS JEEP GO!
He also gave this scenario: if you are getting pulled up a steep hill, it's conceivable that your only anchor point is over the crest of the hill. That means your line will have to drag along the crest. (picture getting winched up a staircase. Your line would drag on the top step.) He said a synthetic line simply cannot do this without breaking, but a steel one can (if that was your only choice - it's not idea as we all know).
Then he added that in 25 years of working for Warn and testing winches in their lab, he's only seen steel cables break IN THE LAB, and only when they were TRYING to break them. That's a lot of experience talking.
So I went with steel and will get the proper safety gear as well.
I just wanted to share some knowledge and facts (and not just internet hearsay).
Warn winches are lab tested to ensure that they actually pull to AND AT their claimed load rating. They have their own standards (there aren't industry standards on this). They have to pull at full load for x number of feet.
Another huge Warn selling point is that its brakes are unique. The brakes are designed to hold up to full load. A handy feature when hanging by a thread up a steep hill!
There was much more, but those were the big ones.
Oh, and he also talked me out of synthetic lines for general use because of their weakness if dragged/rubbed along something.
He gave me an example that he lived to tell about:
He was getting winched up a steep rocky area. His rig slid sideways a bit which dragged the line over a rock and also changed where the cable was now running! He said a synthetic line would have snapped under that condition, LETTING HIS JEEP GO!
He also gave this scenario: if you are getting pulled up a steep hill, it's conceivable that your only anchor point is over the crest of the hill. That means your line will have to drag along the crest. (picture getting winched up a staircase. Your line would drag on the top step.) He said a synthetic line simply cannot do this without breaking, but a steel one can (if that was your only choice - it's not idea as we all know).
Then he added that in 25 years of working for Warn and testing winches in their lab, he's only seen steel cables break IN THE LAB, and only when they were TRYING to break them. That's a lot of experience talking.
So I went with steel and will get the proper safety gear as well.
I just wanted to share some knowledge and facts (and not just internet hearsay).