Curt 2" receiver: Grade 5 bolts???
01-03-2008, 06:01 AM
#11
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Nothing wrong with grade 8, but 5 should be fine; grade 5 bolts have a shear strength of about 90,000 lb/sq in, grade 8 is about 130,000. For a half inch bolt, that's a shear of 17,600 lbs each for grade 5, vs 25,000 each for the grade 8. Even if you're planning to pick up the vehicle by the hitch, one grade 5 in shear is more than strong enough. Their tensile strength is slightly higher than the shear, so that'll work too, but now you're putting all the load on the threads.
Moreover, the bolts are only in shear from vertical loads on the hitch; the pulling load on the hitch goes right to the crossmember. I'd worry more about how the Curt hitch isn't welded all the way across at the front of the channel that goes around the crossmember. And anybody notice that the factory rear hook uses three bolts?
Hardware store stainless steel is not only softer and weaker than carbon steel, you can get funny corrosion problems as well; plus which, it'll round off and bugger no end. Bad idea.
Not to say don't use grade 8; just no need to get hysterical about it. Four grade 5's have about the same shear strength as three grade 8's.
Moreover, the bolts are only in shear from vertical loads on the hitch; the pulling load on the hitch goes right to the crossmember. I'd worry more about how the Curt hitch isn't welded all the way across at the front of the channel that goes around the crossmember. And anybody notice that the factory rear hook uses three bolts?
Hardware store stainless steel is not only softer and weaker than carbon steel, you can get funny corrosion problems as well; plus which, it'll round off and bugger no end. Bad idea.
Not to say don't use grade 8; just no need to get hysterical about it. Four grade 5's have about the same shear strength as three grade 8's.
01-03-2008, 06:54 AM
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As for 4 bolts at grade 5, you are probably right that it will be sufficient. I just don't understand why they would cut a corner that only saves them maybe $2 and could cost a life.
01-03-2008, 07:06 AM
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And I am asking you to provide some specs on the need for grade 8 bolts on hitch and recovery point applications. Please. I couldn't find anything last night when I looked.
01-03-2008, 07:09 AM
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I'll go search for previous discussions and insert links in a minute. I am a biochemist who sucks at Physics so my information is all second-hand but it al supports not using grade 5 for recovery points.
01-03-2008, 07:23 AM
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This is long but very informative on the difference between the 2....
It seems that everyone has an opinion on which grade is better but not many people can or will tell you why. Well, I'd like to explain the technical difference between an SAE Grade 8 (Metric Grade 10.9) and a SAE Grade 5 (Metric Grade 8.8) fasteners.
Most people think a bolt is a bolt is a bolt. They see it as a machined chunk of metal that holds or attaches things. Fasteners (aka bolts or screws) are complex mechanically-engineered hardware. They are made using different materials, different thread types (i.e. coarse, fine, extra fine), various lengths, with grip or no grip (shank), different types (i.e. hex, 12 pt, carriage, etc.), different coatings (i.e. passivated, cadmium, dry film lube, etc.), various classes of fit (i.e. class 3), and multiple grades (i.e. grade 5, 8, etc.).
Bolts come with left or right hand threads, metric or SAE threads, different number of threads per inch (i.e. 20 or 28 for the same size fastener) and various versions of those (i.e. UNF versus UNJF). In addition, there are way too many military specs in existence to list them all here. So with all these differences, it's no wonder most people don't understand the difference between fasteners very well. Of all these differences, I'll focus on the different grades since that is what most shade tree mechanics ask about.
First, you need to be able to identify bolts by the different grades when you go to the local hardware store. Grade 5 bolts have 3 marks or lines on the head that are in the shape of a "Y". Grade 8 bolts have 6 marks on the head.
Second, the different grades have a meaning to them. It tells you how strong the fastener is. There are different types of strengths listed for each grade. Proof strength (about 90% of yield), ultimate tensile strength (bolt fails in stretch), yield strength (bolt begins to get a permanent set and changes cross-sectional area typically) and shear strength (bolt prevents parts from separating by using it's shank or body as a stop).
Depending on how you are using the fastener, you would look at the appropriate and corresponding strength type. For example, bolts that attach a D-ring bracket to the bumper face of a vehicle would be critical in tension . So you would want to know what the tensile strength a particular bolt is. Bolts that attach winch-mounting plates are typically seeing mostly shear loads thus preventing the winch from departing from the vehicle during winching operations. In that case, shear strength is important to you.
Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers lists Grade 5 fasteners as 120 ksi fasteners. This means the tensile strength is 120,000 lbs per square inch. It also lists Grade 8's as 150 ksi fasteners meaning the tensile strength is 150,000 lbs per square inch. Also, the ultimate shear strength of a fastener is typically about 60% of its ultimate tension strength. So given a certain diameter (cross-sectional area) and strength rating, someone can figure out how much load that fastener can carry in both tension and shear.
Let's look at an example of where grade 5 and grade 8 bolts are subjected to single shear loads (winch plate reference).
Using a .250-inch diameter grade 8 fastener gives you the following shear capability:
A = Cross-sectional area of the fastener size (since bolt bodies/shanks have circular cross-sections, use area of a circle) = Pi x r2 where R (radius) = .250/2 = .125, therefore A = Pi x (.125)2 = .0491 square inches (in2)
Capability in shear = 91,000 lbs / in2 x .0491 in2 = 4468 lbs
Using the same .250-inch diameter grade 5 fastener results in the following:
Capability in shear = 75,000 lbs / in2 x .0491 in2 = 3683 lbs
That's a difference of over 750 lbs or over 1/3 ton. In this example you can clearly see that using a grade 8 fastener has a superior advantage over the grade 5. Therefore the result is if someone is using grade 5 bolts in a shear application like the winch plate example, they will fail almost 800 lbs earlier.
I've also heard the argument that grade 8's are more brittle than grade 5's and that's why you shouldn't use them. Well, first you need to understand what the term "brittle" really means. Brittleness in bolts is defined as failure at stresses apparently below the strength of the bolt material with little or no evidence of plastic deformation. Typically, fasteners are not brittle below 180 ksi ultimate tensile strength. Grade 5's have an ultimate tensile strength of 120 ksi and a grade 8 fastener has an ultimate tensile strength of 150 ksi. This is why brittle is a relative term. Nearly all fasteners are considered ductile except some made from PH 15-6 Mo, 17-4 PH and 17-7 PH.
Going back to the D-ring on the face of the bumper example, you would want to know its tensile carrying capability. Calculating the tensile capability is not as easy as shear since the thinnest portion of the bolt is at the minor diameter of the threads (bottom of the thread "V"). So you need to know the nominal minor diameter of that particular fastener. That's where military specification MIL-S-8879C comes in. It is titled "Screw threads, controlled radius root with increased minor diameter, general specification for". It lists that and a lot more for almost all possible fasteners. MIL-S-8879C lists the nominal minor diameter of a .2500-28-UNF at .2065 inches. We can now calculate the A (area) of the cross-section:
A = Pi x r2 = Pi x (.2065/2)2 = .03349 in2
Grade 8 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 130,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4354 lbs minimum
Grade 8 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 150,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 5024 lbs minimum
Grade 5 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 92,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 3081 lbs minimum
Grade 5 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 120,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4019 lbs minimum
Again, you can see that the grade 8 will support over 1000 lbs more or a 1/2-ton more. But there's something more important to note. The grade 5 fastener has already reached its ultimate load and FAILED BEFORE the grade 8 starts to yield or stretch. Therefore, the argument that you should not use grade 8's because they are more brittle than grade 5's is not a true statement in most applications.
Toughness is an important feature of a fastener. It is the opposite of brittleness and gives you an idea of how it will handle abuse without being damaged and eventually weakening the fastener or can cause fatigue to appear much earlier than normal. One way to "measure" toughness is by looking at the hardness rating of a fastener. The higher the number (Brinell, Rockwell …) the harder the material is and the tougher it is to damage. According to Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, Grade 5's typically have a core Rockwell hardness of C25-C34 whereas a grade 8 typically has a core Rockwell hardness of C33-C39. Based on this, grade 8's are tougher than grade 5's.
Fatigue usually doesn't play a big part in grade 8 or grade 5 fasteners since most steels are good for 2 million to 10 million cycles. Far more than you will ever winch or pull on. Here is a quick point about fastener fatigue. Almost all fastener fatigue failures are the result of improper (almost always too low) torque. Too low a torque will cause the fastener to pick up more load more often and eventually cycle it to failure. Therefore, you want to make sure you torque your fasteners to the appropriate level using a torque wrench and make sure to torque dry, clean threads. Lubricated threads significantly change the actual preload on the fastener and you risk over torquing it.
Getting back to the original question, "which fastener grade should I use?" I hope it's very clear by now that grade 8 fasteners are far superior to grade 5 fasteners. If this is so, then why do the automotive manufacturers use some grade 5 fasteners? The automotive OEM's use what it needs to be safe and nothing more since there is a difference in cost between grade 5 and grade 8 (or metric 8.8 and 10.9). Since the OEM's manufacture millions of vehicles each year, the difference in a few cents per fastener adds up to a lot for them. However, as an individual who has spent some serious coin on a winch or lift kit, I wouldn't let the few cents difference in the cost of a grade 8 versus a grade 5 fastener make up my mind as to which fastener I would use.
sourcehttp://www.powroll.com/screwed-grade.htm
It seems that everyone has an opinion on which grade is better but not many people can or will tell you why. Well, I'd like to explain the technical difference between an SAE Grade 8 (Metric Grade 10.9) and a SAE Grade 5 (Metric Grade 8.8) fasteners.
Most people think a bolt is a bolt is a bolt. They see it as a machined chunk of metal that holds or attaches things. Fasteners (aka bolts or screws) are complex mechanically-engineered hardware. They are made using different materials, different thread types (i.e. coarse, fine, extra fine), various lengths, with grip or no grip (shank), different types (i.e. hex, 12 pt, carriage, etc.), different coatings (i.e. passivated, cadmium, dry film lube, etc.), various classes of fit (i.e. class 3), and multiple grades (i.e. grade 5, 8, etc.).
Bolts come with left or right hand threads, metric or SAE threads, different number of threads per inch (i.e. 20 or 28 for the same size fastener) and various versions of those (i.e. UNF versus UNJF). In addition, there are way too many military specs in existence to list them all here. So with all these differences, it's no wonder most people don't understand the difference between fasteners very well. Of all these differences, I'll focus on the different grades since that is what most shade tree mechanics ask about.
First, you need to be able to identify bolts by the different grades when you go to the local hardware store. Grade 5 bolts have 3 marks or lines on the head that are in the shape of a "Y". Grade 8 bolts have 6 marks on the head.
Second, the different grades have a meaning to them. It tells you how strong the fastener is. There are different types of strengths listed for each grade. Proof strength (about 90% of yield), ultimate tensile strength (bolt fails in stretch), yield strength (bolt begins to get a permanent set and changes cross-sectional area typically) and shear strength (bolt prevents parts from separating by using it's shank or body as a stop).
Depending on how you are using the fastener, you would look at the appropriate and corresponding strength type. For example, bolts that attach a D-ring bracket to the bumper face of a vehicle would be critical in tension . So you would want to know what the tensile strength a particular bolt is. Bolts that attach winch-mounting plates are typically seeing mostly shear loads thus preventing the winch from departing from the vehicle during winching operations. In that case, shear strength is important to you.
Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers lists Grade 5 fasteners as 120 ksi fasteners. This means the tensile strength is 120,000 lbs per square inch. It also lists Grade 8's as 150 ksi fasteners meaning the tensile strength is 150,000 lbs per square inch. Also, the ultimate shear strength of a fastener is typically about 60% of its ultimate tension strength. So given a certain diameter (cross-sectional area) and strength rating, someone can figure out how much load that fastener can carry in both tension and shear.
Let's look at an example of where grade 5 and grade 8 bolts are subjected to single shear loads (winch plate reference).
Using a .250-inch diameter grade 8 fastener gives you the following shear capability:
A = Cross-sectional area of the fastener size (since bolt bodies/shanks have circular cross-sections, use area of a circle) = Pi x r2 where R (radius) = .250/2 = .125, therefore A = Pi x (.125)2 = .0491 square inches (in2)
Capability in shear = 91,000 lbs / in2 x .0491 in2 = 4468 lbs
Using the same .250-inch diameter grade 5 fastener results in the following:
Capability in shear = 75,000 lbs / in2 x .0491 in2 = 3683 lbs
That's a difference of over 750 lbs or over 1/3 ton. In this example you can clearly see that using a grade 8 fastener has a superior advantage over the grade 5. Therefore the result is if someone is using grade 5 bolts in a shear application like the winch plate example, they will fail almost 800 lbs earlier.
I've also heard the argument that grade 8's are more brittle than grade 5's and that's why you shouldn't use them. Well, first you need to understand what the term "brittle" really means. Brittleness in bolts is defined as failure at stresses apparently below the strength of the bolt material with little or no evidence of plastic deformation. Typically, fasteners are not brittle below 180 ksi ultimate tensile strength. Grade 5's have an ultimate tensile strength of 120 ksi and a grade 8 fastener has an ultimate tensile strength of 150 ksi. This is why brittle is a relative term. Nearly all fasteners are considered ductile except some made from PH 15-6 Mo, 17-4 PH and 17-7 PH.
Going back to the D-ring on the face of the bumper example, you would want to know its tensile carrying capability. Calculating the tensile capability is not as easy as shear since the thinnest portion of the bolt is at the minor diameter of the threads (bottom of the thread "V"). So you need to know the nominal minor diameter of that particular fastener. That's where military specification MIL-S-8879C comes in. It is titled "Screw threads, controlled radius root with increased minor diameter, general specification for". It lists that and a lot more for almost all possible fasteners. MIL-S-8879C lists the nominal minor diameter of a .2500-28-UNF at .2065 inches. We can now calculate the A (area) of the cross-section:
A = Pi x r2 = Pi x (.2065/2)2 = .03349 in2
Grade 8 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 130,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4354 lbs minimum
Grade 8 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 150,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 5024 lbs minimum
Grade 5 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 92,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 3081 lbs minimum
Grade 5 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 120,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4019 lbs minimum
Again, you can see that the grade 8 will support over 1000 lbs more or a 1/2-ton more. But there's something more important to note. The grade 5 fastener has already reached its ultimate load and FAILED BEFORE the grade 8 starts to yield or stretch. Therefore, the argument that you should not use grade 8's because they are more brittle than grade 5's is not a true statement in most applications.
Toughness is an important feature of a fastener. It is the opposite of brittleness and gives you an idea of how it will handle abuse without being damaged and eventually weakening the fastener or can cause fatigue to appear much earlier than normal. One way to "measure" toughness is by looking at the hardness rating of a fastener. The higher the number (Brinell, Rockwell …) the harder the material is and the tougher it is to damage. According to Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, Grade 5's typically have a core Rockwell hardness of C25-C34 whereas a grade 8 typically has a core Rockwell hardness of C33-C39. Based on this, grade 8's are tougher than grade 5's.
Fatigue usually doesn't play a big part in grade 8 or grade 5 fasteners since most steels are good for 2 million to 10 million cycles. Far more than you will ever winch or pull on. Here is a quick point about fastener fatigue. Almost all fastener fatigue failures are the result of improper (almost always too low) torque. Too low a torque will cause the fastener to pick up more load more often and eventually cycle it to failure. Therefore, you want to make sure you torque your fasteners to the appropriate level using a torque wrench and make sure to torque dry, clean threads. Lubricated threads significantly change the actual preload on the fastener and you risk over torquing it.
Getting back to the original question, "which fastener grade should I use?" I hope it's very clear by now that grade 8 fasteners are far superior to grade 5 fasteners. If this is so, then why do the automotive manufacturers use some grade 5 fasteners? The automotive OEM's use what it needs to be safe and nothing more since there is a difference in cost between grade 5 and grade 8 (or metric 8.8 and 10.9). Since the OEM's manufacture millions of vehicles each year, the difference in a few cents per fastener adds up to a lot for them. However, as an individual who has spent some serious coin on a winch or lift kit, I wouldn't let the few cents difference in the cost of a grade 8 versus a grade 5 fastener make up my mind as to which fastener I would use.
sourcehttp://www.powroll.com/screwed-grade.htm
01-03-2008, 07:36 AM
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OK, here's a good thread but you have to read through all pages to get the whole story:
Start here (this site is blocking the reference so you will have to delete the asterix and replace with pirate 4 x 4 (no spaces):
http://www.*********.com/tech/billav...lts/index.html
Then more discussion here:
http://www.*********.com/forum/showt...rade+5+Grade+8
http://www.*********.com/forum/showt...ade+5+recovery
And
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...highlight=Bolt
Start here (this site is blocking the reference so you will have to delete the asterix and replace with pirate 4 x 4 (no spaces):
http://www.*********.com/tech/billav...lts/index.html
Then more discussion here:
http://www.*********.com/forum/showt...rade+5+Grade+8
http://www.*********.com/forum/showt...ade+5+recovery
And
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...highlight=Bolt
Last edited by amc78cj7; 01-03-2008 at 07:40 AM.
01-03-2008, 07:46 AM
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Interesting analysis, and well explained. I think my Machine Component Design Textbook author could have saved a lot of confusion had he used Jeeps as an example in every situation.
One of my master's classes was "design for strength", but real world applications have many other considerations besides strength. Cost, weight, asthetics, and many more play a part in most applications.
The size of the bolt is also considered when the design specs are determined. Grade 5 bolts were determined to be the best for the design when using 1/2 inch bolts, because they met the design criteria plus a significant safety factor for strength and were cost effective. For slightly smaller bolts, grade 8 bolts may have been used. Maybe 3/8" grade 8 bolts would have been adequate, but were more expensive than 1/2" grade 5, and similar mechanical properties. (No numbers here, just an illustration of the decision process.)
The bottom line is 4 (four) grade 5, 1/2" bolts give plenty of shear strength for towing and recovery applications, including a significant factor of safety.
Would grade 8 bolts be better? Yes. but they are not needed. Thank you for the discussion. I reread the first post this morning, and it seemed a little bit alarmist, but maybe that is just his (or her) nature. There is nothing wrong with that.
Please make sure you know for sure what you are doing if you decide to use other hardware than what is supplied with your equipment. As stated before, grade 8 hardware is an upgrade (not necessary in my opinion, but a good way to spend a few bucks if it gives you peace of mind), but stainless steel bolts are not (for the discussed application).
In some applications, stainless is more important than grade 8, If you were to replace the stainless bolts on your salt water application with "superior" grade 8 hardware, you could find an unpleasant surprise after a year under water.
One of my master's classes was "design for strength", but real world applications have many other considerations besides strength. Cost, weight, asthetics, and many more play a part in most applications.
The size of the bolt is also considered when the design specs are determined. Grade 5 bolts were determined to be the best for the design when using 1/2 inch bolts, because they met the design criteria plus a significant safety factor for strength and were cost effective. For slightly smaller bolts, grade 8 bolts may have been used. Maybe 3/8" grade 8 bolts would have been adequate, but were more expensive than 1/2" grade 5, and similar mechanical properties. (No numbers here, just an illustration of the decision process.)
The bottom line is 4 (four) grade 5, 1/2" bolts give plenty of shear strength for towing and recovery applications, including a significant factor of safety.
Would grade 8 bolts be better? Yes. but they are not needed. Thank you for the discussion. I reread the first post this morning, and it seemed a little bit alarmist, but maybe that is just his (or her) nature. There is nothing wrong with that.
Please make sure you know for sure what you are doing if you decide to use other hardware than what is supplied with your equipment. As stated before, grade 8 hardware is an upgrade (not necessary in my opinion, but a good way to spend a few bucks if it gives you peace of mind), but stainless steel bolts are not (for the discussed application).
In some applications, stainless is more important than grade 8, If you were to replace the stainless bolts on your salt water application with "superior" grade 8 hardware, you could find an unpleasant surprise after a year under water.
01-03-2008, 07:57 AM
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good article. Especially important points about proper torquing and about orientation of the loads (shear vs tension)
The original posting was about how using grade 5 bolts instead of grade 8 will result in some awful consequences and how negligent the vendors must be to supply grade 5; we seem to have strayed from that. Grade 8 will certainly provide an extra margin of strength, nobody's disputing that. The point is, grade 5 is more than adequate, the numbers support that, using grade 8 is gilding the lilly. Go ahead, nobody preventing you, and nobody's going to die for it; just don't spread the hysteria. OEMs use grade 8 where they have to, the cost differential is substantial if you're buying millions of bolts. Personally, i have grade 8 on my winch plate, grade 5 on the hitch because the loads are entirely different.
By the way, when you cut down the 5" grade 8's to fit, be sure to avoid damaging the shank and forming stress risers; a nick in the shank can substantially weaken the bolt.
The original posting was about how using grade 5 bolts instead of grade 8 will result in some awful consequences and how negligent the vendors must be to supply grade 5; we seem to have strayed from that. Grade 8 will certainly provide an extra margin of strength, nobody's disputing that. The point is, grade 5 is more than adequate, the numbers support that, using grade 8 is gilding the lilly. Go ahead, nobody preventing you, and nobody's going to die for it; just don't spread the hysteria. OEMs use grade 8 where they have to, the cost differential is substantial if you're buying millions of bolts. Personally, i have grade 8 on my winch plate, grade 5 on the hitch because the loads are entirely different.
By the way, when you cut down the 5" grade 8's to fit, be sure to avoid damaging the shank and forming stress risers; a nick in the shank can substantially weaken the bolt.
01-03-2008, 08:22 AM
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I will always use Grade 8 on recovery safety components. Safety is NOT a place to skimp. Even if the books say the numbers should be OK for DOT application. What a lot of rookies don't consider is the safety concerns with vehicle recovery. You are not "towing" a rolling vehicle on a flat surface; often times you are pulling 5000lbs+ dead weight through thick mud or over rocks. Consequences of doing it wrong can be fatal. There are some general rules of recovery safety that we should probably post on this board if they are not already uploaded. Just over a year ago I shed many tears when a guy lost his life after connecting two recovery straps with a clevis (big no-no) to pull another vehicle out of the mud. When one strap snapped it slingshoted the remaining strap and clevis through the back window of his truck and into his skull. His son and wife were watching. Yes, I know this was not a case of bolt failure, but does emphasize the importance of safety and proper equipment in recovery. Here's the thread : http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=14048
Stainless steel bolts are a big no-no for anything carrying a load. There is one exception. On my CJ I paid high dollar (like $40 PER BOLT) for hardened Grade 8 stainless steel bolts to connect my leaf springs to my shackles and frame.
Stainless steel bolts are a big no-no for anything carrying a load. There is one exception. On my CJ I paid high dollar (like $40 PER BOLT) for hardened Grade 8 stainless steel bolts to connect my leaf springs to my shackles and frame.
Last edited by amc78cj7; 01-03-2008 at 08:43 AM.