Complete 4" lifts
02-15-2010, 10:45 AM
#21
JK Enthusiast
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this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that a new rear drive shaft is needed with a 4" lift.
Unlimited 6 speed - the stock front and rear are fine
I will do my best to try to answer some of this...
Our specs are typically close... and is not the main reason that we are priced lower than competition. Here are the main reasons that we are priced lower;
WE SELL DIRECT, WE ARE THE WAREHOUSE. That is where most of your 40% cheaper comes from. Our kits are marked up 1 time. Not 1x manufacturer, 1x warehouse, 1x for the reseller.
We keep our costs low, our sources in check and don't do large sponsorships (Truck racing, super expensive SEMA builds, etc.) Even our company vehicles are on a tight budget.
We build, order everything in large volumes. And yes some of it comes from overseas. But we do build everything in the US that we can be competitive with.
Our Jeep Arms range from .188 to .250 DOM tubing. All arms are strong and are covered under warranty.
Our X-flex joints actually are better than Forged joints that we tested them against. They are built from 2 5/8" .25" Wall DOM with 1.25" threads. Our X-flex joint actually cost use more than the forged type, but we can build them within our town. We fab and mold the bushings right here in Dyersburg, TN. I guarantee they are built to last.
The poly / rubber bushing argument could go on for days. They both have Pros/ Cons and we actually use both of them on different kits. Poly has been in use in the off-road industry forever. It's durable and does not have to be pressed in/out like rubber. Our poly is supposed to blended to be closer to the durometer of rubber. This has no impact on the cost of the kit, they are esentially the same costs. [LIST][*]We have tested our 4" kit on 2 door JK's that have 20K+ miles on them now. We just had a 2door JK in the shop to check out. The Drive shaft has no problems. Actually we have thousands of 4" 2 and 4 door kits out in the field and I have not heard of a single driveshaft failure. I'm not saying that it can't happen... but it must be very rare. Maybe it's because our 4" kit actually nets 4" and not 5"-6" like our competitors???[*]To my knowledge we have not had any issues with Lug centric wheel spacers or our disconnects.
"I would begin to believe that they want long-term happy customers. Until then, I cynically believe they target inexperienced fellow jeepers with a lower pricepoint/quality product without fully disclosing the side effects of using some (not all) of their products."
Claiming that we don't car about Long-term happy customers is crazy. We have been in business like 30 years and continue to grow. Our business is built off of repeat customers.
We offer 60 days satisfaction guarantee refund. So if you don't like a kit, send it back for a full refund.
All components are covered against failure. So if you bend, break something, we will replace it.
3 day or less shipping anywhere in the US. If it is instock you will have it within 3 days
Our specs are typically close... and is not the main reason that we are priced lower than competition. Here are the main reasons that we are priced lower;
WE SELL DIRECT, WE ARE THE WAREHOUSE. That is where most of your 40% cheaper comes from. Our kits are marked up 1 time. Not 1x manufacturer, 1x warehouse, 1x for the reseller.
We keep our costs low, our sources in check and don't do large sponsorships (Truck racing, super expensive SEMA builds, etc.) Even our company vehicles are on a tight budget.
We build, order everything in large volumes. And yes some of it comes from overseas. But we do build everything in the US that we can be competitive with.
Our Jeep Arms range from .188 to .250 DOM tubing. All arms are strong and are covered under warranty.
Our X-flex joints actually are better than Forged joints that we tested them against. They are built from 2 5/8" .25" Wall DOM with 1.25" threads. Our X-flex joint actually cost use more than the forged type, but we can build them within our town. We fab and mold the bushings right here in Dyersburg, TN. I guarantee they are built to last.
The poly / rubber bushing argument could go on for days. They both have Pros/ Cons and we actually use both of them on different kits. Poly has been in use in the off-road industry forever. It's durable and does not have to be pressed in/out like rubber. Our poly is supposed to blended to be closer to the durometer of rubber. This has no impact on the cost of the kit, they are esentially the same costs. [LIST][*]We have tested our 4" kit on 2 door JK's that have 20K+ miles on them now. We just had a 2door JK in the shop to check out. The Drive shaft has no problems. Actually we have thousands of 4" 2 and 4 door kits out in the field and I have not heard of a single driveshaft failure. I'm not saying that it can't happen... but it must be very rare. Maybe it's because our 4" kit actually nets 4" and not 5"-6" like our competitors???[*]To my knowledge we have not had any issues with Lug centric wheel spacers or our disconnects.
"I would begin to believe that they want long-term happy customers. Until then, I cynically believe they target inexperienced fellow jeepers with a lower pricepoint/quality product without fully disclosing the side effects of using some (not all) of their products."
Claiming that we don't car about Long-term happy customers is crazy. We have been in business like 30 years and continue to grow. Our business is built off of repeat customers.
We offer 60 days satisfaction guarantee refund. So if you don't like a kit, send it back for a full refund.
All components are covered against failure. So if you bend, break something, we will replace it.
3 day or less shipping anywhere in the US. If it is instock you will have it within 3 days
Last edited by hammerhead; 02-15-2010 at 11:34 AM.
02-15-2010, 12:47 PM
#22
JK Junkie
The RC kit needs extended bumpstops to run larger than 33" tires with stock flares if you offroad it. The in-shock bumpstops will not keep your tires out of your fender flares. They are only designed to stop the shocks from bottoming out.
I am sure if all these manufacturers printed the specs of their DOM tubing, the thickness and strength of their swaybar links, the specs of their rebuildable flex joints, the difference between clevite rubber bushings and poly bushings, the thickness of the steel used on their contol arm ends, etc., etc., etc., it would be very evident to everyone why the RC kit is price 60% as much as the others.
Maybe just the shipping weight difference between the lifts would be enough to know there is a difference.
You get what you pay for, and you can't expect a $1200 lift to be the same quality as a $2000 lift.
If someone is on a budget, a 4" lift should not be considered as an option. 4" will eventually require new driveshafts on automatics and atleast a rear driveshaft on 6 speeds. 4" also will need reinforced axle side trackbar brackets. It should eventually include steering correction. Additionally, on a 2 door, 4" will require modification to the rear lower spring perches because the rear springs will bow back so much that they will regularly contact the rear trackbar.
As long as you know what you will be in for, that's fine. However, you cannot do 4" on a budget without causing other issues.
Hammerhead runs JKS front discos ($147) instead of RC discos ($60) for a reason. Because he has a 6 speed 4 door, his front stock driveshaft will be fine for some time, but if the RC kit really gave him 4", he will eventually need a rear driveshaft. Also, if he wheels it, he will need to reinforce his axle side trackbar brackets both front and rear, and he should have extended bumpstops. He should inspect the welds on his front trackbar axle side bracket to make sure they haven't cracked yet, and at least weld reinforcement gussets on it.
If RC stopped selling a 6" TJ short arm lift, the fixed arm JK 4" and 6" lifts, included extended bumpstops in their JK kits they advertise are good for 35"+ tires, clearly stated that their 4" JK lifts will require lower rear spring perch modifications on 2 doors, clearly stated that automatic JKs will require new front driveshafts with a 4" lift, clearly stated that 2 door JKs will require new rear driveshafts with anything over a 3" lift, clearly stated that their 1.25" body lift is not advisable for 6 speed JKs, and sold hubcentric wheel spacers instead of lug centric wheel spacers, etc., etc., I would begin to believe that they want long-term happy customers. Until then, I cynically believe they target inexperienced fellow jeepers with a lower pricepoint/quality product without fully disclosing the side effects of using some (not all) of their products.
This isn't against anyone who runs RC stuff, or their reps who participate in the forums.
I am sure if you owned a TJ and talked to one of these reps about the RC 6" short arm lift, he would tell you it is a terrible idea and atleast try to convice you to do their 6" long arm instead.
I am sure if you spoke with the RC rep on this forum and told him you had a 2 door JK on which you wanted to run their 4" flex arm kit, he would tell you you would need to budget for a new rear driveshaft, rear spring perch correction/relocation, etc.
I am sure if all these manufacturers printed the specs of their DOM tubing, the thickness and strength of their swaybar links, the specs of their rebuildable flex joints, the difference between clevite rubber bushings and poly bushings, the thickness of the steel used on their contol arm ends, etc., etc., etc., it would be very evident to everyone why the RC kit is price 60% as much as the others.
Maybe just the shipping weight difference between the lifts would be enough to know there is a difference.
You get what you pay for, and you can't expect a $1200 lift to be the same quality as a $2000 lift.
If someone is on a budget, a 4" lift should not be considered as an option. 4" will eventually require new driveshafts on automatics and atleast a rear driveshaft on 6 speeds. 4" also will need reinforced axle side trackbar brackets. It should eventually include steering correction. Additionally, on a 2 door, 4" will require modification to the rear lower spring perches because the rear springs will bow back so much that they will regularly contact the rear trackbar.
As long as you know what you will be in for, that's fine. However, you cannot do 4" on a budget without causing other issues.
Hammerhead runs JKS front discos ($147) instead of RC discos ($60) for a reason. Because he has a 6 speed 4 door, his front stock driveshaft will be fine for some time, but if the RC kit really gave him 4", he will eventually need a rear driveshaft. Also, if he wheels it, he will need to reinforce his axle side trackbar brackets both front and rear, and he should have extended bumpstops. He should inspect the welds on his front trackbar axle side bracket to make sure they haven't cracked yet, and at least weld reinforcement gussets on it.
If RC stopped selling a 6" TJ short arm lift, the fixed arm JK 4" and 6" lifts, included extended bumpstops in their JK kits they advertise are good for 35"+ tires, clearly stated that their 4" JK lifts will require lower rear spring perch modifications on 2 doors, clearly stated that automatic JKs will require new front driveshafts with a 4" lift, clearly stated that 2 door JKs will require new rear driveshafts with anything over a 3" lift, clearly stated that their 1.25" body lift is not advisable for 6 speed JKs, and sold hubcentric wheel spacers instead of lug centric wheel spacers, etc., etc., I would begin to believe that they want long-term happy customers. Until then, I cynically believe they target inexperienced fellow jeepers with a lower pricepoint/quality product without fully disclosing the side effects of using some (not all) of their products.
This isn't against anyone who runs RC stuff, or their reps who participate in the forums.
I am sure if you owned a TJ and talked to one of these reps about the RC 6" short arm lift, he would tell you it is a terrible idea and atleast try to convice you to do their 6" long arm instead.
I am sure if you spoke with the RC rep on this forum and told him you had a 2 door JK on which you wanted to run their 4" flex arm kit, he would tell you you would need to budget for a new rear driveshaft, rear spring perch correction/relocation, etc.
I am not trying to offend anyone at Rough County or any owners of their products, but let's try to be objective about the RC lifts: they are designed for a price point and therefore they have some limitations.
If you notice the preferred high quality lift kits like Teraflex, Rock Krawler, Clayton, Currie and AEV amongst others all have one thing in common: they specialize in JEEPs. That is a good business indicator that their products are focused, differentiated and therefore command a premium (i.e. Harley Davidson, Ferrari, etc). Just compare a few of them side by side, the difference is obvious.
And visual inspection doesn't reveal the large differences in engineering (coil/damping rates, bushing materials, CG/RC management, etc)
Most of us are on a budget, so it's a given that we are going to cut corners somewhere and use inexpensive parts in some cases. I do the same thing in some judicious cases like with my crappy 3.8L
.However the suspension is the foundation of the JK and whether you are going to crawl down to the mall or up El Capitan, choosing your lift based on the lowest price is not advisable in the long run.
Run a SEARCH for each lift kit in this and every other forum you can find and convince yourself which owners are the happiest in the long run.
It's great if want to buy the lowest cost parts out of need or preference, but just don't try to convince anyone else they are the greatest or criticize those that provide an objective analysis.
02-15-2010, 02:41 PM
#24
Former Vendor
Guys
The system you have shown from us is our 5.5" system with drag link flip kit and HD Drag Link. For this gentleman we would recommend the 3.5" X Factor System paired with a set of bilstein 5100 long travel JK shocks! Our 3.5" systems provide 4" of lift up front and 3" of lift in the back.
If you have any other questions or need any help, let us know. Good luck with your build and your search.
Rock Krawler
The system you have shown from us is our 5.5" system with drag link flip kit and HD Drag Link. For this gentleman we would recommend the 3.5" X Factor System paired with a set of bilstein 5100 long travel JK shocks! Our 3.5" systems provide 4" of lift up front and 3" of lift in the back.
If you have any other questions or need any help, let us know. Good luck with your build and your search.
Rock Krawler
02-15-2010, 02:59 PM
#25
Sponsoring Manufacturer
02-15-2010, 04:15 PM
#26
JK Enthusiast
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My RC experience
i am not trying to bash any companies, but i feel my experience may help the OP choose a "complete" kit. the forum exists to help people make decisions and answer questions. most purchases are made on your research and what your budget allows. i purchased an RC lift because it was within my budget and improved my offroad capabilities. i have since gained more experience and started wheeling more frequently over more challenging trails.
i have noticed some failures with some of my components that have led me to start saving for a more capable lift. my lift has been on for 9 months and i spent yesterday morning replacing my rear springs due to some sag and a front shock due to a blown seal. Rough Country's customer service replaced the components as soon as I told them I had an issue...awesome yes, but I still had to take the time to replace them. If i wasn't capable of doing the work myself like some people on here then I would have had to pay somebody to do it for me. They warranty parts not labor.
my personal opinion is it depends on what you are going to be doing. i feel that i am pushing the limits of what my current lift is capable of without more modification. i bought the RC because it was affordable and allowed me to run 35's for more ground clearance. I am now saving for a more capable lift based on other forum members experiences and feedback.
blown shock
sagging passenger side spring
i have noticed some failures with some of my components that have led me to start saving for a more capable lift. my lift has been on for 9 months and i spent yesterday morning replacing my rear springs due to some sag and a front shock due to a blown seal. Rough Country's customer service replaced the components as soon as I told them I had an issue...awesome yes, but I still had to take the time to replace them. If i wasn't capable of doing the work myself like some people on here then I would have had to pay somebody to do it for me. They warranty parts not labor.
my personal opinion is it depends on what you are going to be doing. i feel that i am pushing the limits of what my current lift is capable of without more modification. i bought the RC because it was affordable and allowed me to run 35's for more ground clearance. I am now saving for a more capable lift based on other forum members experiences and feedback.
blown shock
sagging passenger side spring
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02-15-2010, 06:13 PM
#29
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02-15-2010, 06:14 PM
#30
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Ok guys, this whole RC thing is kind of ridiculous. The post was asking for a complete 4” kit and RC does sell a complete 4” kit. The RC lift was recommended by someone and so were several top notch kits by other companies. After that the bashing started and a lot of information that I feel was not correct was posted. I don’t think you are being entirely fair to those looking at the 4” RC lifts. If you read post #12 you will see that some of things mentioned have not been an issue or have been addressed in my lift. I never said that my lift is superior to any of the other lifts noted but stated that it was a good quality lift for the money. If people want to spend 2,000 to 2,500 dollars on a lift then any of those are good choices. Some people do not want to spend that kind of money and the 4” RC lift is a good quality lift in the $1,000 price range. Sure the more expensive brand might be better but that doesn’t make the less expensive brand crap. A lot companies have had some issues with some of their products including some of the A brands listed and this is to be expected. As long as a company stands behind there product 100% this should be acceptable to an extent. Twarne01’s kit is one of the first ones that I’ve heard of with a sagging springs (4” not 2.5”) and I have heard of a few leaking 2.2 shocks but only a few out of a bunch that were sold. RC did stand behind their product and replaced the parts but twarne01 stated that he is not entirely satisfied and will be getting a different lift. I’m glad he posted that and I’ll keep an eye on my shocks and springs. This is the kind of information that’s very helpful and good to know for people considering the kit.