33's on Stocker at Full Flex?
02-28-2008, 07:32 AM
#21
If I have a question, I will use the search first. If I can't find what I'm looking for, I ain't gonna spend 15 minutes lookin the damn search feature over. I'm gonna ask the question. I don't really give a rat's butt whether anybody likes it or not. I'm askin. That's why we're here. To help. Tellin somebody they shouldda used the search is like drivin by somebody stuck in a hole, stickin your head out the window and yellin "I told you not to go down there!!", instead of helping them out. Some of yall just need to lighten up.
02-28-2008, 08:07 AM
#22
JK Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I almost choked on my Cheerios when I read this.
02-28-2008, 08:25 AM
#23
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Holbrook, MA
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Not to pee in anybody's Cheerios here or anything, but there is a good reason to use the search first. If everybody who has the same question creates a new thread to ask it, pretty soon when you do search, it brings back so many hits as to make the search function worthless.
Not picking on anybody, just pointing out the other side.
Not picking on anybody, just pointing out the other side.
02-28-2008, 08:56 AM
#24
JK Super Freak
A lot of confusion (Even for people who DO search...) is that the term 33's can mean any tire with that DIAMETER....but, the rub related to backspacing is due to WIDTH, not diameter.
So - you can read 30 threads, and see that without a shadow of a doubt, the "33's" will, and will not, rub. Period. Its very clear. Like mud.
So - for the newbies struggling with these concepts - rub related to tires and spacers or backspacing is related to the WIDTH of the tire.
Rub related to BL or SL/Spacer lift/BB's...is mostly related to DIAMETER.
The wild card on less back spacing is that any tire mounted with less BS, via a spacer, or a rim with less BS, etc...swings in a wider arc when you turn....
and
and tire with a larger diameter ALSO swings in a wider arc when you turn.
So -
You need to consider these factors when wondering if something might rub.
_______________
A BL moves the fenders and well components upwards out of the way of the tire...so there's more swing room, and more stuffage room. A set of extended/flat fender type replacements can also help in this regard.
A coil spacer (A type of suspension lift) raises the ride height, which can help on turns, but not on compression, as the tire will stuff up to the same point with, or without a suspension lift (SL).
A bump stop extension stops the axle from rising sooner...robbing you of uptravel articulation....sometimes to prevent over compression of coils (Rare unless very tall lift coil is involved), sometimes to prevent over compression of a shock (Common, if a short travel shock is used that cannot compress enough to preserve uptravel articulation), and sometimes to prevent over stuffage related impact to the top of the wells of too large a tire to fit under full stuffage (Common, if no BL, etc, is used to raise the well/fenders.)
Suspension lifts, in of themselves....just raise your ride height.
They can allow larger tires to fit at ride height, by moving the frame and body up and out of the way of the tires......and, because they essentially "Pre-Droop" you to raise the frame...they sacrificed down travel for uptravel...so, for a tire to fully stuff, it has to rise further before it would hit....but, under full stuffage, if the tire would hit without the SL, it will ALSO hit WITH the SL.
Mathmatically, if a stockish 33" tire clears your well/fenders...and a 35" tire is 2" larger, it protrudes about 1" further upwards under full stuffage....so, a 1" BL can allow 35's to fit, all by itself.
A "big 33" might NOT clear under full stuffage on a stock JK, but a "nominal 33" tire, which might be 32.5 - 32.8", etc in actual size, typically clears.
35's come in nominal sizes as well, as some 35's are only 34" in diameter, and some are a full 35", etc.
The stock "32's" are a bit OVER 32" in diameter, etc.
To get the same clearance with a SL, most people find they need 2.5 - 3" of SL to get the same clearance equivalent....as that extra inch of protrusion can hit if the wells and fenders are still there, under full compression, etc.
____________________________________
So - the BEST combination for larger tires would be less back spacing if they are fatter than around 285's (~ 11.5's...), and a BL if they are taller than the nominal 33's...as far as preserving articulation...
...for ground clearance at ride height, approach and departure, breakover, etc, angles...an SL is nice to get the frame up...
...But, ONLY larger TIRE diameters lift the diffs and axles up over the rocks, out of the muck, etc....as well as raise the ENTIRE jeep.
____________________________________
The higher you lift your jeep, the higher your center of gravity, and the more likely you are to roll over, either in an avoidance maneuver on the hwy, or off camber on a sidehill, etc.
____________________________________
As larger tires do not raise your center of gravity (COG) too much, as the weight of the tires themselves lower the COG somewhat, etc, lifting to gain ground clearance with larger tires has the least impact typically on over all stability, and, wider tires on less backspacer rims, can INCREASE stability, by widening the track, etc.
______________________________________
The body of the jeep is light, especially compared to the frame and the drive train/engine, etc, attached to the frame, etc.
Therefore, a BL has very little effect on the COG, and a 1" BL has no noticeable effect.
__________________________________________
A suspension lift has a noticeable effect on the COG after an inch or two, and a very noticeable impact above 4" or so, depending upon the set-up.
_________________________________________
Therefore, the safest set-up to fit larger tires and improve ground clearance uses techniques to keep the COG as low as possible for stability....1" of BL for example might save 2.5" of SL.
Reduction in BS can increase the track, and also allow wider tires to further increase the track, further lowering the COG.
_________________________________________
All of the above factors can help a person decide how they want to modify their JK.
For example...if all you do are fire trails and mild wheeling, the kind even a guy with a brush guard can get through without a problem...you do not HAVE to do ANYTHING...you could leave it stock...save a ton of money...and still get everywhere you want to go.
If the situation is similar to that, but muddier, and your stock SR-A's are spinning, etc...just upgrade to a more aggressive tread pattern...and maybe a fatterpattern if you're sinking/bogging down....or high centering...which means a taller tire is needed, etc.
If you also have some rocks you can't get over...figure out if its that the tires are ripping, or too small to meet the rock half way up to be able to climb it, etc...and if your break over angle, etc...is in need of improvement to clear things, etc.
IE: Improve what you HAVE to, to make the jeep able to do what it can't do now, that you need it to.
______________________________________
Pros and Cons:
Well, if you use a BL, pretty much, no downside, they've been pretty fool proof lately....no other changes are required to compensate, other than perhaps making a bit more room in the floor pan for the shift lever to pull down to, etc.
If you do a larger fender, like flat fender flares, etc...well, that's pretty much independant of the rest of the rig.
If you do an SL...you get into the fact that you are raising the frame further from the axles...and, as there are several things ATTACHED to both frame and axle...when you move them further apart...the attachments can get taut, and or pull things out of alignment.
For example...the track bars, one end is on the frame, the other on the axle....jack it up, and the axle is dragged towards the frame mount...so the front and rear axles go in opposite directions...and you need longer/adjustable track bars to bring them back.
The steering linkage does the same thing up front...the axle is dragged towards the steering linkage mount, or steered towards it, etc.
and so forth.
So - the shorter the jeep, the more acute the driveline angles, so, after ~ 3" of lift for a 2dr...things break/vibrate, etc...and you need new drivetrain parts, like drive shafts, etc...and new arms to adjust the caster, etc...to compensate.
_________________________________________
IE: The more SL you go for, the more $ you need to spend to compensate for all of the changes that go with it.
_________________________________________
So - to fit larger tires - consider the SL vs BL/Flatty type solutions, as well as the wheel spacer/new rim solutions, relative to what you need the JK to do...
...and pick what works for you.
So - you can read 30 threads, and see that without a shadow of a doubt, the "33's" will, and will not, rub. Period. Its very clear. Like mud.
So - for the newbies struggling with these concepts - rub related to tires and spacers or backspacing is related to the WIDTH of the tire.
Rub related to BL or SL/Spacer lift/BB's...is mostly related to DIAMETER.
The wild card on less back spacing is that any tire mounted with less BS, via a spacer, or a rim with less BS, etc...swings in a wider arc when you turn....
and
and tire with a larger diameter ALSO swings in a wider arc when you turn.
So -
You need to consider these factors when wondering if something might rub.
_______________
A BL moves the fenders and well components upwards out of the way of the tire...so there's more swing room, and more stuffage room. A set of extended/flat fender type replacements can also help in this regard.
A coil spacer (A type of suspension lift) raises the ride height, which can help on turns, but not on compression, as the tire will stuff up to the same point with, or without a suspension lift (SL).
A bump stop extension stops the axle from rising sooner...robbing you of uptravel articulation....sometimes to prevent over compression of coils (Rare unless very tall lift coil is involved), sometimes to prevent over compression of a shock (Common, if a short travel shock is used that cannot compress enough to preserve uptravel articulation), and sometimes to prevent over stuffage related impact to the top of the wells of too large a tire to fit under full stuffage (Common, if no BL, etc, is used to raise the well/fenders.)
Suspension lifts, in of themselves....just raise your ride height.
They can allow larger tires to fit at ride height, by moving the frame and body up and out of the way of the tires......and, because they essentially "Pre-Droop" you to raise the frame...they sacrificed down travel for uptravel...so, for a tire to fully stuff, it has to rise further before it would hit....but, under full stuffage, if the tire would hit without the SL, it will ALSO hit WITH the SL.
Mathmatically, if a stockish 33" tire clears your well/fenders...and a 35" tire is 2" larger, it protrudes about 1" further upwards under full stuffage....so, a 1" BL can allow 35's to fit, all by itself.
A "big 33" might NOT clear under full stuffage on a stock JK, but a "nominal 33" tire, which might be 32.5 - 32.8", etc in actual size, typically clears.
35's come in nominal sizes as well, as some 35's are only 34" in diameter, and some are a full 35", etc.
The stock "32's" are a bit OVER 32" in diameter, etc.
To get the same clearance with a SL, most people find they need 2.5 - 3" of SL to get the same clearance equivalent....as that extra inch of protrusion can hit if the wells and fenders are still there, under full compression, etc.
____________________________________
So - the BEST combination for larger tires would be less back spacing if they are fatter than around 285's (~ 11.5's...), and a BL if they are taller than the nominal 33's...as far as preserving articulation...
...for ground clearance at ride height, approach and departure, breakover, etc, angles...an SL is nice to get the frame up...
...But, ONLY larger TIRE diameters lift the diffs and axles up over the rocks, out of the muck, etc....as well as raise the ENTIRE jeep.
____________________________________
The higher you lift your jeep, the higher your center of gravity, and the more likely you are to roll over, either in an avoidance maneuver on the hwy, or off camber on a sidehill, etc.
____________________________________
As larger tires do not raise your center of gravity (COG) too much, as the weight of the tires themselves lower the COG somewhat, etc, lifting to gain ground clearance with larger tires has the least impact typically on over all stability, and, wider tires on less backspacer rims, can INCREASE stability, by widening the track, etc.
______________________________________
The body of the jeep is light, especially compared to the frame and the drive train/engine, etc, attached to the frame, etc.
Therefore, a BL has very little effect on the COG, and a 1" BL has no noticeable effect.
__________________________________________
A suspension lift has a noticeable effect on the COG after an inch or two, and a very noticeable impact above 4" or so, depending upon the set-up.
_________________________________________
Therefore, the safest set-up to fit larger tires and improve ground clearance uses techniques to keep the COG as low as possible for stability....1" of BL for example might save 2.5" of SL.
Reduction in BS can increase the track, and also allow wider tires to further increase the track, further lowering the COG.
_________________________________________
All of the above factors can help a person decide how they want to modify their JK.
For example...if all you do are fire trails and mild wheeling, the kind even a guy with a brush guard can get through without a problem...you do not HAVE to do ANYTHING...you could leave it stock...save a ton of money...and still get everywhere you want to go.
If the situation is similar to that, but muddier, and your stock SR-A's are spinning, etc...just upgrade to a more aggressive tread pattern...and maybe a fatterpattern if you're sinking/bogging down....or high centering...which means a taller tire is needed, etc.
If you also have some rocks you can't get over...figure out if its that the tires are ripping, or too small to meet the rock half way up to be able to climb it, etc...and if your break over angle, etc...is in need of improvement to clear things, etc.
IE: Improve what you HAVE to, to make the jeep able to do what it can't do now, that you need it to.
______________________________________
Pros and Cons:
Well, if you use a BL, pretty much, no downside, they've been pretty fool proof lately....no other changes are required to compensate, other than perhaps making a bit more room in the floor pan for the shift lever to pull down to, etc.
If you do a larger fender, like flat fender flares, etc...well, that's pretty much independant of the rest of the rig.
If you do an SL...you get into the fact that you are raising the frame further from the axles...and, as there are several things ATTACHED to both frame and axle...when you move them further apart...the attachments can get taut, and or pull things out of alignment.
For example...the track bars, one end is on the frame, the other on the axle....jack it up, and the axle is dragged towards the frame mount...so the front and rear axles go in opposite directions...and you need longer/adjustable track bars to bring them back.
The steering linkage does the same thing up front...the axle is dragged towards the steering linkage mount, or steered towards it, etc.
and so forth.
So - the shorter the jeep, the more acute the driveline angles, so, after ~ 3" of lift for a 2dr...things break/vibrate, etc...and you need new drivetrain parts, like drive shafts, etc...and new arms to adjust the caster, etc...to compensate.
_________________________________________
IE: The more SL you go for, the more $ you need to spend to compensate for all of the changes that go with it.
_________________________________________
So - to fit larger tires - consider the SL vs BL/Flatty type solutions, as well as the wheel spacer/new rim solutions, relative to what you need the JK to do...
...and pick what works for you.
