3.6 Turbo
12-12-2014, 01:59 AM
#21
JK Newbie
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yep! They are also placing the turbos closer to the heads as well, which gets boost up quicker. Most people who mention "turbo lag" are often referring to older systems. I know we had a 2002 Volvo S60 T5 which was far less efficient than turbos developed today and it still hit peak torque of 250 ft.lbs. at 1800 RPMs. And this is from a 2.3L
Long story short, turbo lag is a relative feeling... if your vehicle is not a high end race spec vehicle (not multi turbo, twin charged, etc.) and you don't feel the lag, chances are, the turbo is not doing its job well.
12-12-2014, 02:38 AM
#22
JK Enthusiast
I don't know if forced induction in a smaller engine naturally means better mileage than a naturally aspirated slightly larger engine. There's more fuel and air being put in to the smaller engine than what goes in to the bigger engine so what one hand gives, the other takes.
The real way that modern turbo engines do well in terms of both power and mileage is by not having the turbo spool up too early. So when you're in traffic and you need to inch forward, there's hardly any turbo boost and the engine effectively works like a smaller, naturally aspirated engine. Putting the foot down (and waiting for a bit for the turbo to spool up) gives the additional boost. Effectively like having two engines in one.
I for one don't like the idea of the V6 turbo, if it does make it to the Wrangler. Right now the 3.6 is very responsive even with the automatic transmission and there's plenty of torque also thanks to the 3.73 and up gearing. A 3.2 turbo would be more sluggish to move from crawl and the benefits would mostly come in higher revs which is like giving a comb to a bald guy. The only way around this is to have a multi-stage or a variable geometry turbo and I'm not hopeful that such a thing would come for the Wrangler... for the Grand Cherokee maybe.
The real way that modern turbo engines do well in terms of both power and mileage is by not having the turbo spool up too early. So when you're in traffic and you need to inch forward, there's hardly any turbo boost and the engine effectively works like a smaller, naturally aspirated engine. Putting the foot down (and waiting for a bit for the turbo to spool up) gives the additional boost. Effectively like having two engines in one.
I for one don't like the idea of the V6 turbo, if it does make it to the Wrangler. Right now the 3.6 is very responsive even with the automatic transmission and there's plenty of torque also thanks to the 3.73 and up gearing. A 3.2 turbo would be more sluggish to move from crawl and the benefits would mostly come in higher revs which is like giving a comb to a bald guy. The only way around this is to have a multi-stage or a variable geometry turbo and I'm not hopeful that such a thing would come for the Wrangler... for the Grand Cherokee maybe.
12-12-2014, 02:55 AM
#23
JK Newbie
Does anyone realize that turbo wastegates in new vehicles are now ECU controlled with an actuator? Meaning that when you are on the trail, unless you are giving it a significant amount of throttle, most of the exhaust will bypass the turbocharger...
You likely won't be making any more power or torque in normal wheeling situations than NA because the requested load is extremely small when crawling...in turn the wastegate actuator doesn't close the wastegate, very little exhaust spoils the turbo, and you'll likely still be in vacuum.
Cool dyno graphs, they tell nothing in regards to trail usage...unless you're at WOT full load all the time, and not many of us are ultra4 racers or rock bouncers...
Where you will see benefit is on the road.
And what the hell is this bag of ice shit? You think engine controls are that shitty? Have you ever owned a turbocharged car or truck? When in boost your AFR goes down significantly because the ECU is trying to keep the turbo cool with extra fuel. If predicted exhaust temps get too high, an algorithm based on YEARS of testing at OEMs, it'll open the wastegate and NO BOOST FOR YOU! This isn't the 1980's, safety protocols are built into the engine ECU to protect itself AND you.
Most, not all, of you should read a book, "maximum boost: designing, installing, and testing turbochargers". It'll help bring you up to speed on how these systems work. Then pick up a manual on Bosch Motronic ECU control and be blown away by its capabilities, if you can understand what they're even talking about.
You likely won't be making any more power or torque in normal wheeling situations than NA because the requested load is extremely small when crawling...in turn the wastegate actuator doesn't close the wastegate, very little exhaust spoils the turbo, and you'll likely still be in vacuum.
Cool dyno graphs, they tell nothing in regards to trail usage...unless you're at WOT full load all the time, and not many of us are ultra4 racers or rock bouncers...
Where you will see benefit is on the road.
And what the hell is this bag of ice shit? You think engine controls are that shitty? Have you ever owned a turbocharged car or truck? When in boost your AFR goes down significantly because the ECU is trying to keep the turbo cool with extra fuel. If predicted exhaust temps get too high, an algorithm based on YEARS of testing at OEMs, it'll open the wastegate and NO BOOST FOR YOU! This isn't the 1980's, safety protocols are built into the engine ECU to protect itself AND you.
Most, not all, of you should read a book, "maximum boost: designing, installing, and testing turbochargers". It'll help bring you up to speed on how these systems work. Then pick up a manual on Bosch Motronic ECU control and be blown away by its capabilities, if you can understand what they're even talking about.
12-12-2014, 03:00 AM
#24
JK Newbie
All other things the same (I.e. Requested load, throttle position, vehicle gearing, ambient conditions, location, etc), a turbochargered motor will be more efficient than NA based on pumping efficiencies alone. NA has to suck air in and push it out...forced induction takes far less power to suck in air.
So, like I said, in the same exact conditions with same vehicle, only change is a turbocharged motor vs. The same motor NA...turbocharged will ALWAYS be more efficient on the highway. To keep the car moving ahead at a given amount of speed, it only takes a small percentage of full rated power. That amount of power between the two exact vehicles will be the same, however, since the turbo engine is more efficient at pumping air, it doesn't need to use as much fuel.
12-12-2014, 03:34 AM
#25
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Does anyone realize that turbo wastegates in new vehicles are now ECU controlled with an actuator? Meaning that when you are on the trail, unless you are giving it a significant amount of throttle, most of the exhaust will bypass the turbocharger... You likely won't be making any more power or torque in normal wheeling situations than NA because the requested load is extremely small when crawling...in turn the wastegate actuator doesn't close the wastegate, very little exhaust spoils the turbo, and you'll likely still be in vacuum. Cool dyno graphs, they tell nothing in regards to trail usage...unless you're at WOT full load all the time, and not many of us are ultra4 racers or rock bouncers... Where you will see benefit is on the road. And what the hell is this bag of ice shit? You think engine controls are that shitty? Have you ever owned a turbocharged car or truck? When in boost your AFR goes down significantly because the ECU is trying to keep the turbo cool with extra fuel. If predicted exhaust temps get too high, an algorithm based on YEARS of testing at OEMs, it'll open the wastegate and NO BOOST FOR YOU! This isn't the 1980's, safety protocols are built into the engine ECU to protect itself AND you. Most, not all, of you should read a book, "maximum boost: designing, installing, and testing turbochargers". It'll help bring you up to speed on how these systems work. Then pick up a manual on Bosch Motronic ECU control and be blown away by its capabilities, if you can understand what they're even talking about.
And the comment regarding a bag of ice was me being sarcastic but there is some truth to it. The turbo requires the intercooler to cool the charge air and it gets that air from traveling faster down the road. If a guy is just sitting on a rock or trail spinning the tires and not going anywhere the intercooler may as well not even be hooked up. If you've ever seen a car on a dyno, that's why the tuner will typically place a large fan in front of the intercooler and put a bag of ice on the intercooler. Same thing happens at the dragstrip.
And yes, I understand how all this works. I built an 06 WRX with three different turbo setups and spent time at the track.
Last edited by Stubicon; 12-12-2014 at 07:17 AM.
12-12-2014, 03:53 AM
#26
JK Enthusiast
Does anyone realize that turbo wastegates in new vehicles are now ECU controlled with an actuator? Meaning that when you are on the trail, unless you are giving it a significant amount of throttle, most of the exhaust will bypass the turbocharger...
You likely won't be making any more power or torque in normal wheeling situations than NA because the requested load is extremely small when crawling...in turn the wastegate actuator doesn't close the wastegate, very little exhaust spoils the turbo, and you'll likely still be in vacuum.
Cool dyno graphs, they tell nothing in regards to trail usage...unless you're at WOT full load all the time, and not many of us are ultra4 racers or rock bouncers...
Where you will see benefit is on the road.
And what the hell is this bag of ice shit? You think engine controls are that shitty? Have you ever owned a turbocharged car or truck? When in boost your AFR goes down significantly because the ECU is trying to keep the turbo cool with extra fuel. If predicted exhaust temps get too high, an algorithm based on YEARS of testing at OEMs, it'll open the wastegate and NO BOOST FOR YOU! This isn't the 1980's, safety protocols are built into the engine ECU to protect itself AND you.
Most, not all, of you should read a book, "maximum boost: designing, installing, and testing turbochargers". It'll help bring you up to speed on how these systems work. Then pick up a manual on Bosch Motronic ECU control and be blown away by its capabilities, if you can understand what they're even talking about.
You likely won't be making any more power or torque in normal wheeling situations than NA because the requested load is extremely small when crawling...in turn the wastegate actuator doesn't close the wastegate, very little exhaust spoils the turbo, and you'll likely still be in vacuum.
Cool dyno graphs, they tell nothing in regards to trail usage...unless you're at WOT full load all the time, and not many of us are ultra4 racers or rock bouncers...
Where you will see benefit is on the road.
And what the hell is this bag of ice shit? You think engine controls are that shitty? Have you ever owned a turbocharged car or truck? When in boost your AFR goes down significantly because the ECU is trying to keep the turbo cool with extra fuel. If predicted exhaust temps get too high, an algorithm based on YEARS of testing at OEMs, it'll open the wastegate and NO BOOST FOR YOU! This isn't the 1980's, safety protocols are built into the engine ECU to protect itself AND you.
Most, not all, of you should read a book, "maximum boost: designing, installing, and testing turbochargers". It'll help bring you up to speed on how these systems work. Then pick up a manual on Bosch Motronic ECU control and be blown away by its capabilities, if you can understand what they're even talking about.
12-12-2014, 04:44 AM
#27
JK Newbie
The turbo requires the intercooler to keep cool and it gets that air from traveling faster down the road. If a guy is just sitting on a rock or trail spinning the tires and not going anywhere the intercooler may as well not even be hooked up. If you've ever seen a car on a dyno, that's why the tuner will typically place a large fan in front of the intercooler and put a bag of ice on the intercooler.
As for the tune that basically will hold the wastegate shut, that's cool and all, but why do you need more power crawling around? Unless we're talking ultra4 or rock bouncers that use wheel speed to get over obstacles...then worthwhile...
12-12-2014, 05:10 AM
#28
JK Enthusiast
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But the intercooler is post turbo and cools the charge air, not the turbo, so your engine does not pull timing because of high IATs. High IATs won't kill your turbo, it'll kill your power because the ECU will pull timing and dump fuel to keep things cool. You're confusing me and likely people reading this thread by the way that you are describing how critical components function. As for the tune that basically will hold the wastegate shut, that's cool and all, but why do you need more power crawling around? Unless we're talking ultra4 or rock bouncers that use wheel speed to get over obstacles...then worthwhile...
Last edited by Stubicon; 12-12-2014 at 05:41 AM.
12-12-2014, 05:23 AM
#29
JK Newbie
You're still ignoring my point. If the car is sitting still spinning the tires, the intercooler is is not getting the air it needs this increasing the potential for pre detonation.
My point is the same as yours. I don't believe a turbo on a jeep built for slow crawling would not be beneficial.
My point is the same as yours. I don't believe a turbo on a jeep built for slow crawling would not be beneficial.
):^^FIFY