why no diesel jeeps in the states?
07-11-2009, 03:09 AM
#11
JK Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really wanted a diesel too and was holding off, holding off, waiting.....then finally took what I could get. Every day you wait is one less day you will have a Jeep. Who knows when they will sell diesels here? Just get your gas JK and don't look back. You will not regret it.
07-11-2009, 03:31 AM
#12
JK Jedi
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Primarily pollution, though I think there are demand issues (possibly just perceived) for putting out more diesels. Lets see how the new clean diesel technology goes, thus far it seems to mean less MPG, which won't help it's adoption, especially when diesel prices sky-rocket again.
07-11-2009, 03:33 AM
#13
JK Jedi
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I to would be careful dropping $50K on a vehicle without a VIN, however according to JP magazine they claim AEV provides informational help in getting it registered and road-worthy (based on things done by other auto enthusiasts over the years).
07-11-2009, 04:40 AM
#14
JK Super Freak
As for desiel. I'd like to have one just for the multi-fuel aspect of being able to burn Bio Desiel in case of an emergency. I very much hate that they went to a V6 engine. I understand WHY they did it, but the Jeep really needs an in-line engine for torque or a desiel.
07-11-2009, 05:31 AM
#15
Two main reasons we will not see a diesel surge in the US any time soon.
1. Lack of percieved market. We as members here are the very smallest minority of those that recognize the bennifit of a small diesel. Most Americans still equate power with displacment and diesel with smokey loud and rough engines. The rapid flucuation in domestic diesel prices doesnt help either. Both GM and Ford have dropped their respective half ton deisel programs for now (F150 and 1500 respectivly). They simply dont think people will buy enough to justify engineering and producing the vehicles, and they may be right (thats a different argument).
2. Emissions standards. The Government is slowly chokeing out the ability of deisel to be a viable drivetrain (and gas for that matter too) with the ever increasing emissions standards. Deisel engines have always been efficient which is why they produce so much power, but when you litterly plug up the backside of the engine by requireing catlytic converters, soot scrubbers, urea injectors, and noise baffles you no longer have an engine that runs. You then have to stard adding single and dual turbos to these engines to make them viable again taking away from the simple reliability they once had. You also kill the effeciency of these engines. Without the reliability and effeiciency who wants to by one.
Example: (gas engine) Recently I returned from living in europe for a few years. While there i drove my 2.0liter Kia as my primary driver. I ran headers into traight pipe terminating in a quality muffler. I was able to get between 38-40 mpg in mixed driving.
When I returned I had it smogged in the same configeration as I had been driving it. It actually passed california emissions, but failed the inspection due to use of non CARB certified parts.
I returned to the stock exhaust/emissions equipment and had it re-tested. I again passed smog (approx. 5% improvment on emmisions) but now only get approx 28-30 mpg. So I gained 5% improved emissions but now use almost 20% more fuel. Which in the end is more efficient and cleaner for the enviroment?????
1. Lack of percieved market. We as members here are the very smallest minority of those that recognize the bennifit of a small diesel. Most Americans still equate power with displacment and diesel with smokey loud and rough engines. The rapid flucuation in domestic diesel prices doesnt help either. Both GM and Ford have dropped their respective half ton deisel programs for now (F150 and 1500 respectivly). They simply dont think people will buy enough to justify engineering and producing the vehicles, and they may be right (thats a different argument).
2. Emissions standards. The Government is slowly chokeing out the ability of deisel to be a viable drivetrain (and gas for that matter too) with the ever increasing emissions standards. Deisel engines have always been efficient which is why they produce so much power, but when you litterly plug up the backside of the engine by requireing catlytic converters, soot scrubbers, urea injectors, and noise baffles you no longer have an engine that runs. You then have to stard adding single and dual turbos to these engines to make them viable again taking away from the simple reliability they once had. You also kill the effeciency of these engines. Without the reliability and effeiciency who wants to by one.
Example: (gas engine) Recently I returned from living in europe for a few years. While there i drove my 2.0liter Kia as my primary driver. I ran headers into traight pipe terminating in a quality muffler. I was able to get between 38-40 mpg in mixed driving.
When I returned I had it smogged in the same configeration as I had been driving it. It actually passed california emissions, but failed the inspection due to use of non CARB certified parts.
I returned to the stock exhaust/emissions equipment and had it re-tested. I again passed smog (approx. 5% improvment on emmisions) but now only get approx 28-30 mpg. So I gained 5% improved emissions but now use almost 20% more fuel. Which in the end is more efficient and cleaner for the enviroment?????
07-11-2009, 11:18 AM
#16
JK Enthusiast
The Liberty CRD was a 2005-2006 model. I've got one, and love it. But, the US emission standards changed for 2007, hence all the big 3 truck motors going to diesel particulate filters and the need for Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. Those standards don't exist in Europe yet. The 2.8 motor would require a major redesign and recertification of the fueling map to meet NOx standards, and a particulate filter, and maybe Urea injection too. That kind of development and EPA certification takes a boat load of money that Chrysler does not have right now. Then, you have to weigh those costs against the question of whether or not a Diesel is going to increase the market share or sales volume they already have? And that's still up in the air when you look at diesel fuel prices vs gas. The big cost benefit Diesel used to enjoy 3-4 years ago does not exist anymore because it takes a lot more work and energy to refine Ultra low sulfur highway diesel fuel than it did pre 2007 fuel. The big mileage benefit diesel motors used to enjoy has been sharply curtailed by the need for much more displacement to match pre 2007 power levels, and the extra fuel it takes to run the purge / clean cycles on the particulate filters. When you also look at all the problems the big three are having on their trucks with the new emissions control gear, you gotta wonder about the huge amount of cash their burning settling warranty claims. That's another bean counter vote in the board room against another model with a diesel in today's environment.
Last edited by Smopho; 07-11-2009 at 11:22 AM.
07-12-2009, 02:27 AM
#18
JK Jedi
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Liberty CRD was a 2005-2006 model. I've got one, and love it. But, the US emission standards changed for 2007, hence all the big 3 truck motors going to diesel particulate filters and the need for Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. Those standards don't exist in Europe yet. The 2.8 motor would require a major redesign and recertification of the fueling map to meet NOx standards, and a particulate filter, and maybe Urea injection too. That kind of development and EPA certification takes a boat load of money that Chrysler does not have right now. Then, you have to weigh those costs against the question of whether or not a Diesel is going to increase the market share or sales volume they already have? And that's still up in the air when you look at diesel fuel prices vs gas. The big cost benefit Diesel used to enjoy 3-4 years ago does not exist anymore because it takes a lot more work and energy to refine Ultra low sulfur highway diesel fuel than it did pre 2007 fuel. The big mileage benefit diesel motors used to enjoy has been sharply curtailed by the need for much more displacement to match pre 2007 power levels, and the extra fuel it takes to run the purge / clean cycles on the particulate filters. When you also look at all the problems the big three are having on their trucks with the new emissions control gear, you gotta wonder about the huge amount of cash their burning settling warranty claims. That's another bean counter vote in the board room against another model with a diesel in today's environment.
This is why the 2.8 won't be available here. Before everything went to hell the talk was of a new small Cummin's diesel. There is also the 3.0 diesel that is now available in the Grand Cherokee. It also seems that the new clean diesels aren't geting the ultra high mpg that previous versions got, making them less attractive.
07-12-2009, 02:28 AM
#19
JK Jedi
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Particulate matter became the big hang-up with the diesels here iirc, I believe they do do better than gas on other gaseous emissions.
07-12-2009, 07:21 AM
#20
JK Freak
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 905
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Liberty CRD was a 2005-2006 model. I've got one, and love it. But, the US emission standards changed for 2007, hence all the big 3 truck motors going to diesel particulate filters and the need for Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. Those standards don't exist in Europe yet. The 2.8 motor would require a major redesign and recertification of the fueling map to meet NOx standards, and a particulate filter, and maybe Urea injection too. That kind of development and EPA certification takes a boat load of money that Chrysler does not have right now. Then, you have to weigh those costs against the question of whether or not a Diesel is going to increase the market share or sales volume they already have? And that's still up in the air when you look at diesel fuel prices vs gas. The big cost benefit Diesel used to enjoy 3-4 years ago does not exist anymore because it takes a lot more work and energy to refine Ultra low sulfur highway diesel fuel than it did pre 2007 fuel. The big mileage benefit diesel motors used to enjoy has been sharply curtailed by the need for much more displacement to match pre 2007 power levels, and the extra fuel it takes to run the purge / clean cycles on the particulate filters. When you also look at all the problems the big three are having on their trucks with the new emissions control gear, you gotta wonder about the huge amount of cash their burning settling warranty claims. That's another bean counter vote in the board room against another model with a diesel in today's environment.
