Hydrogen System on the Jeep
09-17-2008, 03:26 PM
#42
JK Super Freak
OK here's the deal. The water into hydrogen does work. However there are some problems.
I'm retired military, and currently an electrician at a large printing facility by trade. Myself, another electrician and a machinist built a system in our machine shop about 2 months ago. We started with two iron bars for our electrodes, using a 12 volt battery we had in the shop as our power source. Within 20 minites or so we were making hydrogen. A very small amount but hydrogen non the less. We determined that the amount we were making would not support an idling automobile engine much less one that was running at say 30 MPH. We increased our container size which allowed us to hold more water, and used distilled water. In addition we increased the number of metal bars from two to six. We stayed with the same wire size of 14 gauge THHN, knowing that it would most likely not support the power we were using. We began to make more hydrogen, however after about 30 minutes our wire became so hot we were on the verge of a meltdown. We never hoooked an ammeter in so we did not know how many amps we were drawing. I would asume it was in excess of 40 as 14 THHN will support 40 amps DC. We shut down and installed 10 gauge, since that would support 100 amps DC. We did in fact again produce hydrogen, however we were most likely drawing about 60 amps for the production, and after about 3 hours it was taking its toll on our battery. We shut down again and installed a 440V 3ph power supply, having the capability of producing up to 500 amps of DC power. We set the output at about 80 amps DC. We were making more hydrogen than we needed to enhance a running automobile. it was kinda fun burning the hydrogen we were producing.
Now for the problem with this system.
We have proven that although one can produce enough hydrogen to suppliment gas to power an engine, the power needed to maintain this for any length of time would be greater than what a normal automobile battery and alternator could supply whitout any adverse effects on the electrical system.
Again, although we did produce a great amount of hydrogen, we did not install this into a running automobile, therefore we were not able to see if it would have improved gas miliage, or destroyed an automobiles engine.
We did determine that by using a 12 volt battery, 14 gauge wire, a 1 qt container and 2 metal bars as electrodes, the hydrogen gas produced would not have enhanced the gas in any way.
I would suggest if you want to build a system that might be of any value, (if hydrogen does in fact enhance gas miliage, without destruction of engine components), then you must have a larger output than the stock JK alternator, design your circuit correctly using the proper wire size and fuses, and by no means use a glass container for your water/hydrogen.
Good luck.
I'm retired military, and currently an electrician at a large printing facility by trade. Myself, another electrician and a machinist built a system in our machine shop about 2 months ago. We started with two iron bars for our electrodes, using a 12 volt battery we had in the shop as our power source. Within 20 minites or so we were making hydrogen. A very small amount but hydrogen non the less. We determined that the amount we were making would not support an idling automobile engine much less one that was running at say 30 MPH. We increased our container size which allowed us to hold more water, and used distilled water. In addition we increased the number of metal bars from two to six. We stayed with the same wire size of 14 gauge THHN, knowing that it would most likely not support the power we were using. We began to make more hydrogen, however after about 30 minutes our wire became so hot we were on the verge of a meltdown. We never hoooked an ammeter in so we did not know how many amps we were drawing. I would asume it was in excess of 40 as 14 THHN will support 40 amps DC. We shut down and installed 10 gauge, since that would support 100 amps DC. We did in fact again produce hydrogen, however we were most likely drawing about 60 amps for the production, and after about 3 hours it was taking its toll on our battery. We shut down again and installed a 440V 3ph power supply, having the capability of producing up to 500 amps of DC power. We set the output at about 80 amps DC. We were making more hydrogen than we needed to enhance a running automobile. it was kinda fun burning the hydrogen we were producing.
Now for the problem with this system.
We have proven that although one can produce enough hydrogen to suppliment gas to power an engine, the power needed to maintain this for any length of time would be greater than what a normal automobile battery and alternator could supply whitout any adverse effects on the electrical system.
Again, although we did produce a great amount of hydrogen, we did not install this into a running automobile, therefore we were not able to see if it would have improved gas miliage, or destroyed an automobiles engine.
We did determine that by using a 12 volt battery, 14 gauge wire, a 1 qt container and 2 metal bars as electrodes, the hydrogen gas produced would not have enhanced the gas in any way.
I would suggest if you want to build a system that might be of any value, (if hydrogen does in fact enhance gas miliage, without destruction of engine components), then you must have a larger output than the stock JK alternator, design your circuit correctly using the proper wire size and fuses, and by no means use a glass container for your water/hydrogen.
Good luck.
09-18-2008, 07:28 AM
#43
JK Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2008
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Errr... what?
First off, there's no "proof" that this was enough until you either carefully measure how much hydrogen you were producing (tough), or actually run an engine off of it.
Second, it's well known and proven that hydrogen can produce enough energy to run a car. However, it's NOT possible to run a car on hydrogen that is being produced by the car itself.
Anyway, read:
>>>
The first thing you'll note about these "run your car on water" schemes is the size of the electrolysis cell and the wires that lead to it.
Typically they're about jam-jar size and the wires are about 16 gauge, a thickness that can comfortably carry about 30A which, at 12V, represents about 360W of power.
So the first question obviously has to be...
How much gas is needed to reduce fuel consumption by 40%?
Well the first thing is to work out how much energy it requires to keep an average vehicle cruising at(say) 65mph. According to this source it takes around 20HP to cruse at that speed.
Let's convert that to electrical energy by multiplying by 746 (the number of watts in a horsepower). We get 14,920, or roughly 15KW.
Now, if we want to replace 40% of that power with energy from HHO gas, we'll need to use at least 15KW x 0.4 which comes to 6,000 watts (6KW).
If we assume that the electrolysis cell which converts electricity into HHO gas is 100% efficient (which it certainly isn't) then that means we'll need a massive 6000W/12V or 500 amps of current to make that much gas.
Suddenly those 30A wires are looking rather inadequate aren't they?
What's more, since the average car's alternator can only deliver about 80A of current, this means the battery would have to deliver the other 520A and (in the case of even a good 80AH unit) would be flat in under 10 minutes.
Of course these simple calculations ignore the fact that electrolysis cells are not 100% efficient and the even more important fact that the average internal combustion engine is only around 30% efficient -- so even if we delivered 6KW of HHO gas to the engine it would only produce under 2KW of actual power.
With these inefficiencies taken into account we'd actually need a staggering 1,500A of electrical current to generate the necessary HHO gas to reduce our fuel input by 40%.
So clearly the math doesn't add up. There's just no way you can extract enough electrical energy from your car's automotive system to create the gas volumes needed to create any meaningful amount of energy.
Taken from:
aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml
Last edited by noot; 09-18-2008 at 07:30 AM.
09-18-2008, 09:33 AM
#44
JK Super Freak
Errr... what?
First off, there's no "proof" that this was enough until you either carefully measure how much hydrogen you were producing (tough), or actually run an engine off of it.
Second, it's well known and proven that hydrogen can produce enough energy to run a car. However, it's NOT possible to run a car on hydrogen that is being produced by the car itself.
Anyway, read:
>>>
The first thing you'll note about these "run your car on water" schemes is the size of the electrolysis cell and the wires that lead to it.
Typically they're about jam-jar size and the wires are about 16 gauge, a thickness that can comfortably carry about 30A which, at 12V, represents about 360W of power.
So the first question obviously has to be...
How much gas is needed to reduce fuel consumption by 40%?
Well the first thing is to work out how much energy it requires to keep an average vehicle cruising at(say) 65mph. According to this source it takes around 20HP to cruse at that speed.
Let's convert that to electrical energy by multiplying by 746 (the number of watts in a horsepower). We get 14,920, or roughly 15KW.
Now, if we want to replace 40% of that power with energy from HHO gas, we'll need to use at least 15KW x 0.4 which comes to 6,000 watts (6KW).
If we assume that the electrolysis cell which converts electricity into HHO gas is 100% efficient (which it certainly isn't) then that means we'll need a massive 6000W/12V or 500 amps of current to make that much gas.
Suddenly those 30A wires are looking rather inadequate aren't they?
What's more, since the average car's alternator can only deliver about 80A of current, this means the battery would have to deliver the other 520A and (in the case of even a good 80AH unit) would be flat in under 10 minutes.
Of course these simple calculations ignore the fact that electrolysis cells are not 100% efficient and the even more important fact that the average internal combustion engine is only around 30% efficient -- so even if we delivered 6KW of HHO gas to the engine it would only produce under 2KW of actual power.
With these inefficiencies taken into account we'd actually need a staggering 1,500A of electrical current to generate the necessary HHO gas to reduce our fuel input by 40%.
So clearly the math doesn't add up. There's just no way you can extract enough electrical energy from your car's automotive system to create the gas volumes needed to create any meaningful amount of energy.
Taken from:
aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml
First off, there's no "proof" that this was enough until you either carefully measure how much hydrogen you were producing (tough), or actually run an engine off of it.
Second, it's well known and proven that hydrogen can produce enough energy to run a car. However, it's NOT possible to run a car on hydrogen that is being produced by the car itself.
Anyway, read:
>>>
The first thing you'll note about these "run your car on water" schemes is the size of the electrolysis cell and the wires that lead to it.
Typically they're about jam-jar size and the wires are about 16 gauge, a thickness that can comfortably carry about 30A which, at 12V, represents about 360W of power.
So the first question obviously has to be...
How much gas is needed to reduce fuel consumption by 40%?
Well the first thing is to work out how much energy it requires to keep an average vehicle cruising at(say) 65mph. According to this source it takes around 20HP to cruse at that speed.
Let's convert that to electrical energy by multiplying by 746 (the number of watts in a horsepower). We get 14,920, or roughly 15KW.
Now, if we want to replace 40% of that power with energy from HHO gas, we'll need to use at least 15KW x 0.4 which comes to 6,000 watts (6KW).
If we assume that the electrolysis cell which converts electricity into HHO gas is 100% efficient (which it certainly isn't) then that means we'll need a massive 6000W/12V or 500 amps of current to make that much gas.
Suddenly those 30A wires are looking rather inadequate aren't they?
What's more, since the average car's alternator can only deliver about 80A of current, this means the battery would have to deliver the other 520A and (in the case of even a good 80AH unit) would be flat in under 10 minutes.
Of course these simple calculations ignore the fact that electrolysis cells are not 100% efficient and the even more important fact that the average internal combustion engine is only around 30% efficient -- so even if we delivered 6KW of HHO gas to the engine it would only produce under 2KW of actual power.
With these inefficiencies taken into account we'd actually need a staggering 1,500A of electrical current to generate the necessary HHO gas to reduce our fuel input by 40%.
So clearly the math doesn't add up. There's just no way you can extract enough electrical energy from your car's automotive system to create the gas volumes needed to create any meaningful amount of energy.
Taken from:
aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml
As a matter of fact I will say again.
"We have proven that although one can produce enough hydrogen to suppliment gas to power an engine, the power needed to maintain this for any length of time would be greater than what a normal automobile battery and alternator could supply whitout any adverse effects on the electrical system. "
"We did determine that by using a 12 volt battery, 14 gauge wire, a 1 qt container and 2 metal bars as electrodes, the hydrogen gas produced would not have enhanced the gas in any way. "
As you can clearly see I am not pro on this idea,
09-18-2008, 09:39 AM
#45
JK Freak
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SFV-LA, CA
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People .............if I could see you all I'd be watching a reality show. This is entertaining. I don't care either way. To each their own! But it is very entertaining!
09-19-2008, 12:59 PM
#47
JK Super Freak
Sure I can, and will.
I'll need the name of your banking institution, with complete address. Your complete name and SSN. Your wifes name, SSN, and maiden name. Your address. Your mothers maiden name. Your checking account number with routing number. Might as well give me the PIN also. That will make things easier. Now don't post all that info here as someone with ill will might do something nasty. Just PM me all the info and I'll take care of everything.
Now getting back on thread. Has anyone built a system, installed it in a vehicle, and ran the vehicle on the road. If so what were the outcomes?
Last edited by Lorrel; 09-19-2008 at 01:02 PM.
