derff96963

Why are you all stuck on this working? I really wish it would work. However I am an engineer and my job is usually think up ways to make things work. This one however would have to defy the laws of physics to work.

One reason I am being so adamant is the risk you are taking by trying this. The only way these can show results is but tricking the computer and leaning out the fuel mixture. That is VERY DANGEROUS. Here is a quote from Wikipedia

"Lean mixtures produce hotter combustion gases than does a stoichiometric mixture, so much so that pistons can melt as a result. Rich mixtures produces cooler combustion gases than does a stoichiometric mixture, primarily due to the excessive amount of carbon which oxidises to form carbon monoxide, rather than carbon dioxide. The chemical reaction oxidizing carbon to form carbon monoxide releases significantly less heat than the similar reaction to form carbon dioxide. (Carbon monoxide retains significant potential chemical energy. It is itself a fuel whereas carbon dioxide is not.) Lean mixtures, when consumed in an internal combustion engine, produce less power than does the stoichiometric mixture. Similarly, rich mixtures return poorer fuel efficiency than the stoichiometric mixture. (The mixture for the best fuel efficiency is slightly different from the stoichiometric mixture.)"


I actually saw a truck one time that had glowing red exhaust manifolds because the fuel filter was clogged and it was running lean. The odd thing was it ran just fine. You couldn't really tell by driving it. This could have caused major damage if it wasn't noticed when it was.

ShadesOfGrey

Actually, the most common undesired side effect from this is the computer making the mixture RICHER. It senses more 02 and adds fuel to compensate.

derff96963

You are right but I was refering to the cases where it apears to work. In these cases the engine is probably running dangerously on the lean side and that leads to the potential of Damage.


What I would like to see is a blind test. We need 25 Pairs of cars. 50 total and each pair identical. All type of cars ranging from trucks and suvs to older carburated models to a prius. Put this system on one pf each of the pair. Lock the hoods shut and give them to people to drive not knowing whats in them. Also use the same fuel in all of them and maticlously monitor fuel usage. That would prove finally that this doesn't work.

This would also take out the human factor since the drivers would not know what they are driving. You would take the slowly more careful driving out of the picture.

jwetzel

What we REALLY need is someone with an advanced degree in Physics to tell us whether this is possible.

Hey, guess what? I have an advanced degree in Physics!

No. It's not possible. You cannot get excess energy by converting from one form to another.

A standard engine works like this, energy-wise: chemical -> thermal -> mechanical. There are losses at each conversion.

The idea behind this hydrogen system is: chemical -> thermal -> mechanical -> use some of it for electrical -> split the water to get chemical again -> thermal -> mechanical. There are still losses at each conversion.

This is not rocket science, nuclear engineering, or anywhere near the limits of our knowledge. There is no wiggle room for "innovators" here. It's Physics 102, which I tought to freshmen during their second quarter.

It cannot be done. It doesn't matter who says they did it. They are lying to either themselves or you. It's not possible.

pastorsteve

I think we all know, either intuitively or academically, that no Hydrogen splitting is being done under the hood of an automobile..... okay, except for in Back to the Future.

But water injection systems have been around for over 20 years and maybe, just maybe, this will turn out to be the next evolution of that attempt to improve mileage. Maybe it is just what it takes for 2 or three members here to determine for all that it doesn't do anything and put it to rest.

And just maybe they'll be the next one or two to come up with a mistake that............ Okay I know it's far fetched but they're going to do it anyway so I guess we'll hear from them.

I'm sure it was a typo but ..... when you tought your students, hopefully you taught them to spell properly in their papers.

noot

Wow, it's incredible how gullible some people are.

Even if people install it and say it works, IT MEANS NOTHING. There are too many variables involved. All PROPER testing of HHO devices in a proper environment show THEY DO NOTHING.

What will it take to convince people? "Well, sure proper studies performed by anyone who know what they're doing shows they don't work, but my pal 'Joe Blow' is rigging one up, I'll see if HIS works"

Read the link I posted previously. It doesn't even take a degree to understand why IT DOESN'T WORK.

I'll never ever understand how people can look at straight simple mathematics and undeniable reasoning, and still say "Nah, I think it'll work." or "I'll wait to see 'real world' results." Simply astounding.

pastorsteve

The same reason some people - even after empirical data disputing it - still think they can beat the train to the crossing. Survival of the fittest. Some will still go over Niagara Falls .... some still shake babies.... none of these rate high on the "likely to end well for you" but folks still do. No reason to ask why.... just sit back and watch.

noot

I don't agree...

Every example you gave is entirely different.

Have people beaten trains? yes. Is it because of "other variables" that are unaccounted for? No.

Have people survived over niagara falls? Yes. Heck, people have survived falling 16000ft from an airplane without a parachute.

No one has EVER broken the laws of physics, it can't be done. It has nothing to do with "It's unlikely you'll be able to do it." You simply can't.

spartan99

Scientists knew that those things could be accomplished (flight, splitting the atom and breaking the sound barrier). In this case, scientists are saying that this cannot be accomplished. It defies the most basic law of physics: You can never get more energy in return than what you put in.

jwetzel

Good catch. Too much time spent writing alphas and epsilons. Not enough on English.

Doesn't change the point though. The laws of Physics leave no wiggle room here.

What's surprising is that it isn't just ignorant or unintelligent people who fall for this. I have a client. Very smart guy, works in a highly technical field. Just installed a hydrogen system on his truck. He didn't blink an eye as he drew diagrams for me, showing the free energy he was going to get. The human mind is a fascinating thing. Desire can override reason so easily.