MAJOR BUG with MYGIG/Uconnect and Apple devices!!
10-10-2012, 07:19 AM
#11
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As I said before. I'm just trying to point you in the right direction. I do this kind of stuff for a living. Sorry, if you are taking offense to my suggestions. I only have 20+ years of experience working in the development and testing of audio and electronic products but what the hell do I know? 
I know exactly what you are describing, I don't need to read anything again. I'm giving you some advise.
So since you wouldn't take my advise I went ahead and did it myself.
1st Point: Yes, you are correct that with Apple devices, the L/R is reversed when using BT and USB connections. Contrary to that, when plugging in a USB stick with the exact same files on them the L/R channel mappings are correct. So as you pointed out, the USB connection is a "Digital" connection. Well so is the USB stick with media files plugged into the same USB port. So where is the problem? Is the problem with the way the Apple devices are transferring the data to the Uconnect or is it how the Uconnect is interpretting the digital data it is receiving? The answer is, it's inconclusive because fixing it so that it works properly on one device may make it so it works incorrectly on the other device. More testing and investigating is needed to determine where this "bug" is and which device should be fixing the problem. It doesn't necessarily mean "Chrysler needs to fix this" like you described. It may mean, "Apple needs to fix this and probably won't", so keep on buying Apple devices if this is so crucial to you like you described.
2nd Point: No I did not observe ANY warping of the output sound making it sound similar to the effect of a whammy bar on a guitar. As you originally stated you observed this while messing around and "tuning" your system. What do you mean by "tuning' your system? Does this mean you have an external amplifier, where you are adjusting some input gains?
Let me tell you a couple things about "Sine Waves" and amplifiers and how they relate to the design of an audio system. A sine wave is often used as a worst case test for an amplifier or any other audio reproductive device. Yes, it's an audio signal but what makes it non realistic is that a Sine wave has a -3dB RMS level. NO other audio signal has an RMS level that high. Most "real" music runs around -10dB RMS and highly compressed music comes in around -6dB RMS. So even the worst case music track draws half the power that it would require to playback your Sine wave test tracks. You probably don't believe me, so do yourself a favor and buy yourself a current meter and measure the current draw when playing a Sine wave vs. a typical music track with the same volume setting on the radio and watch how much more AMPS are being drawn while playing back that sine wave.
So why does this matter? The reason why it matters is because having to playback a Sine Wave requires at least twice the power consumption in an amplifier as it would for ANY other audio music, and what does twice the power consumption do in electronic devices like an amplifier? It makes them twice as HOT. Most current amplifier designs are smart enough, that when it starts to get overly hot it invokes a protection mechanism inside the amplifier to prevent itself form burning up and self destructing itself. One of these protection mechanisms used is called a "Fold back" mechanism. The amplifier will start folding back the amount of output gain, thus reducing the output gain by decreasing the amount of power the amp is drawing and therefore allowing itself to cool down while it's turning itself down. As it cool downs, it then starts to bring the output gain levels back up. Now if you listened to this while playing a sine wave it would sound like the audio is warbling, thus adjusting the level of the playing sine wave up and down but if you did this same thing with a regular music track you wouldn't notice it because the music naturally has dynamics and would allow the amplifier to naturally cool down or when the amplifier did fold back, it would be so gradual that you wouldn't be able to detect it with your ear. So what you are currently calling a "Bug" actually may be a feature so the amplifier or radio doesn't burn itself out. It's a feature that only sounds bad when playing Sine Waves like you are doing and then jumping to the wrong conclusions.
But hey...what do I know? I've only been working with and designing audio systems for 20+ years. It's probably just a "bug" like you said. One that I'm not observing with the SAME radio. You know I find I often go to my doctor and tell them they don't know what they're talking about and they don't understand and need to go back and read also. How about you?
Now don't get me wrong. What you found in regards to the L/R channel mapping not being correct should get fixed, but it's always a good idea to make sure you're barking up the right tree before saying things like "Chrysler needs to fix this" and that's what I was trying to point out to you.
I know exactly what you are describing, I don't need to read anything again. I'm giving you some advise. So since you wouldn't take my advise I went ahead and did it myself.
1st Point: Yes, you are correct that with Apple devices, the L/R is reversed when using BT and USB connections. Contrary to that, when plugging in a USB stick with the exact same files on them the L/R channel mappings are correct. So as you pointed out, the USB connection is a "Digital" connection. Well so is the USB stick with media files plugged into the same USB port. So where is the problem? Is the problem with the way the Apple devices are transferring the data to the Uconnect or is it how the Uconnect is interpretting the digital data it is receiving? The answer is, it's inconclusive because fixing it so that it works properly on one device may make it so it works incorrectly on the other device. More testing and investigating is needed to determine where this "bug" is and which device should be fixing the problem. It doesn't necessarily mean "Chrysler needs to fix this" like you described. It may mean, "Apple needs to fix this and probably won't", so keep on buying Apple devices if this is so crucial to you like you described.
2nd Point: No I did not observe ANY warping of the output sound making it sound similar to the effect of a whammy bar on a guitar. As you originally stated you observed this while messing around and "tuning" your system. What do you mean by "tuning' your system? Does this mean you have an external amplifier, where you are adjusting some input gains?
Let me tell you a couple things about "Sine Waves" and amplifiers and how they relate to the design of an audio system. A sine wave is often used as a worst case test for an amplifier or any other audio reproductive device. Yes, it's an audio signal but what makes it non realistic is that a Sine wave has a -3dB RMS level. NO other audio signal has an RMS level that high. Most "real" music runs around -10dB RMS and highly compressed music comes in around -6dB RMS. So even the worst case music track draws half the power that it would require to playback your Sine wave test tracks. You probably don't believe me, so do yourself a favor and buy yourself a current meter and measure the current draw when playing a Sine wave vs. a typical music track with the same volume setting on the radio and watch how much more AMPS are being drawn while playing back that sine wave.
So why does this matter? The reason why it matters is because having to playback a Sine Wave requires at least twice the power consumption in an amplifier as it would for ANY other audio music, and what does twice the power consumption do in electronic devices like an amplifier? It makes them twice as HOT. Most current amplifier designs are smart enough, that when it starts to get overly hot it invokes a protection mechanism inside the amplifier to prevent itself form burning up and self destructing itself. One of these protection mechanisms used is called a "Fold back" mechanism. The amplifier will start folding back the amount of output gain, thus reducing the output gain by decreasing the amount of power the amp is drawing and therefore allowing itself to cool down while it's turning itself down. As it cool downs, it then starts to bring the output gain levels back up. Now if you listened to this while playing a sine wave it would sound like the audio is warbling, thus adjusting the level of the playing sine wave up and down but if you did this same thing with a regular music track you wouldn't notice it because the music naturally has dynamics and would allow the amplifier to naturally cool down or when the amplifier did fold back, it would be so gradual that you wouldn't be able to detect it with your ear. So what you are currently calling a "Bug" actually may be a feature so the amplifier or radio doesn't burn itself out. It's a feature that only sounds bad when playing Sine Waves like you are doing and then jumping to the wrong conclusions.
But hey...what do I know? I've only been working with and designing audio systems for 20+ years. It's probably just a "bug" like you said. One that I'm not observing with the SAME radio. You know I find I often go to my doctor and tell them they don't know what they're talking about and they don't understand and need to go back and read also. How about you?
Now don't get me wrong. What you found in regards to the L/R channel mapping not being correct should get fixed, but it's always a good idea to make sure you're barking up the right tree before saying things like "Chrysler needs to fix this" and that's what I was trying to point out to you.
10-10-2012, 11:52 AM
#12
Super Moderator
This is actually good information. Not trying to question your expertise, your experience or trying to imply what you are saying is not valid, just responding to what sounded like not much more than an attack on mine. Perhaps it was a little quick to blame Chrysler right away, even though it very well may be an issue on their end. Moving forward, that's good insight into the protection systems of amplifiers. The warbling effect seems to only be present when playing the test tracks off the Apple devices. When I play the same test track off of a CD at the same volume level i don't experience this. Would there be any difference in how the amp/radio would treat the two signals?
As an FYI, when you play this file via bluetooth wireless, it's not a straight one to one digital transfer. The file on your Apple device will go through a format conversion, which could add artifacts and reduce the sound quality. Also when you playback via BlueTooth the volume you have set on your Apple device comes into play, so adjusting the volume on your device will effect the level it is being received by the radio. This is not the case with the USB connection. With USB the volume control does not have an impact. Also, make sure the EQ settings on your Apple devices is set to "Flat" since these EQ settings will also have an impact on both the USB and BT audio quality. If it's not currently set to flat, then this could explain the warbling sound you're hearing, which I'm not.
Last edited by Rednroll; 10-10-2012 at 11:58 AM.
10-11-2012, 04:02 AM
#13
JK Enthusiast
@ Rednroll,
if he's having a difference between the Apple product and a CD, could this be an issue also with the milivolt output of the Apple product's audio section? Just curious. Thanks
if he's having a difference between the Apple product and a CD, could this be an issue also with the milivolt output of the Apple product's audio section? Just curious. Thanks
10-11-2012, 07:32 AM
#14
Super Moderator
I'm not familiar with the milivolt output with Apple products that you're referring to....so possibly? Could you further elaborate?
The only thing I could think of that you may be referring to is the Apple 1000mA USB power requirements, but that doesn't sound like what you are talking about.
Using non Apple USB cables have also been known to cause strange issues, so that's another possibility but dudemanbro has not mentioned anything about the particular cable he is using and since he mentioned it happened with BT streaming audio I kind of eliminated that scenario.
Since I'm not experiencing the warble sound on the same radio, we would really need to dig into the differences between our systems and setups which I believe could fall into the following categories.
1. Cable differences (I'm using a standard Apple branded USB cable).
2. Device/iOS differences. I've tested with an iPhone 3GS iOS 5.1 and an iPod Classic, as well as a USB thumb drive.
3. File Format differences on the Apple devices. I'm using 1Khz@0dBFS stereo, MP3 44.1Khz, 320kbs Joint Stereo encoded. So there's a lot of variables that could come into play here.
4. Audio settings on the Apple device side. EQ, Volume, etc.
5. Any aftermarket devices within the audio reproduction chain. Dudemanbro, mentioned he was "tuning" something. Not sure what that something may be within the audio processing chain.
6. Battery/electrical strength differences. Sine waves draw more current than typical music.
7. Radio settings. Volume, Tone, fade/balance.
Last edited by Rednroll; 10-11-2012 at 07:54 AM.
10-11-2012, 09:08 AM
#15
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maybe you guys can help
Gents,
Sorry to jump into this late but maybe you can help.. I have the NAV radio in a 2010 rubicon... whenever I plug in an ipod (I think its a gen 5 nano), it tries to pull the songs into the radio... I plug in my ipone 4, and nothing at all...
questions that I have:
1. How on earth do you connect the iphone via bluetooth to play music thru nav radio? my phone calls work great thru bluetooth and dragon dictation for texting, but not for music.
2. How do you know what "model" the radio is? I was looking at getting a lockpick, just curious because I see different head unit models on these forums.
3. is it possible that the 2010 radio isnt compatible to bluetooth music? I use the headphone jack, but I would like to either be uncorded, or use the white applt cord on bottom, but that just isnt working.
thanks for your help, Im new to the Jeep world!
RLTW!
Sorry to jump into this late but maybe you can help.. I have the NAV radio in a 2010 rubicon... whenever I plug in an ipod (I think its a gen 5 nano), it tries to pull the songs into the radio... I plug in my ipone 4, and nothing at all...
questions that I have:
1. How on earth do you connect the iphone via bluetooth to play music thru nav radio? my phone calls work great thru bluetooth and dragon dictation for texting, but not for music.
2. How do you know what "model" the radio is? I was looking at getting a lockpick, just curious because I see different head unit models on these forums.
3. is it possible that the 2010 radio isnt compatible to bluetooth music? I use the headphone jack, but I would like to either be uncorded, or use the white applt cord on bottom, but that just isnt working.
thanks for your help, Im new to the Jeep world!
RLTW!
10-11-2012, 01:27 PM
#16
Super Moderator
Gents,
Sorry to jump into this late but maybe you can help.. I have the NAV radio in a 2010 rubicon... whenever I plug in an ipod (I think its a gen 5 nano), it tries to pull the songs into the radio... I plug in my ipone 4, and nothing at all...
questions that I have:
1. How on earth do you connect the iphone via bluetooth to play music thru nav radio? my phone calls work great thru bluetooth and dragon dictation for texting, but not for music.
2. How do you know what "model" the radio is? I was looking at getting a lockpick, just curious because I see different head unit models on these forums.
3. is it possible that the 2010 radio isnt compatible to bluetooth music? I use the headphone jack, but I would like to either be uncorded, or use the white applt cord on bottom, but that just isnt working.
thanks for your help, Im new to the Jeep world!
RLTW!
Sorry to jump into this late but maybe you can help.. I have the NAV radio in a 2010 rubicon... whenever I plug in an ipod (I think its a gen 5 nano), it tries to pull the songs into the radio... I plug in my ipone 4, and nothing at all...
questions that I have:
1. How on earth do you connect the iphone via bluetooth to play music thru nav radio? my phone calls work great thru bluetooth and dragon dictation for texting, but not for music.
2. How do you know what "model" the radio is? I was looking at getting a lockpick, just curious because I see different head unit models on these forums.
3. is it possible that the 2010 radio isnt compatible to bluetooth music? I use the headphone jack, but I would like to either be uncorded, or use the white applt cord on bottom, but that just isnt working.
thanks for your help, Im new to the Jeep world!
RLTW!
10-11-2012, 01:35 PM
#17
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Wow that was too easy.. So i have the rer.. Any way to play an iphone4 thru the phones plug, rather than the aux headphone jack? Or stream it via bluetooth? It just isnt working but phone bluetooth works great
RLTW
RLTW
10-11-2012, 01:43 PM
#18
Super Moderator
So, the USB connector on the RER only allows you to plug a USB stick in with MP3 or WMA files on it and transfer those songs to the RER's internal HDD. It does not support plugging in an iPod/iPhone or USB stick and directly playing the songs off of those devices.
In regards to Bluetooth it's similar. The RER supports bluetooth Phone capabilities but it does not support Bluetooth streaming audio. Thus the reason why you can use it for making phone calls and such, but can't stream music wirelessly. This feature was also added in the newer RHR.
So in both cases, you're not doing anything wrong. The radio just does not have these features built into it.
10-11-2012, 02:11 PM
#19
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This is a huge help, disheartening, but good to know..
I tried to use a thumb drive but it wouldnt accept the format.. Any ideas?
Also, none of this seems to be in manuals, any tips on publications for more?
RLTW
I tried to use a thumb drive but it wouldnt accept the format.. Any ideas?
Also, none of this seems to be in manuals, any tips on publications for more?
RLTW
10-11-2012, 02:28 PM
#20
JK Enthusiast
Hey Rednroll,
The milivolt output that I'm referring to is in the audio section. I remeber back when I was building car audio systems that some radios only had 500 mv output at the RCA cables, some of the higher end radios started having 1,000 mv output and back in the early 90's (possibly late 80's) Alpine had the first high output radio with 4 volts output. This higher output allowed amps to be driven stronger and allow a lowering of the amps input gain control. It also allowed a better driving signal in muli amp systems.
With the lower mv output, the gains would be turned up much higher. I often found this to start the amp clipping sooner.
Another thing that I can ask is, does he have the motor running or just the key in the on position. There's a lot of amps that have unregulated power supplies and perform better at the higher DC voltage when the motor is running and the alternator charging.
These are just things that I had seen and you very well may know more about this than I do, especially with your Engineering background that you mentioned in an earlier reply here.
Thanks for all the technical info that you have supplied here.
The milivolt output that I'm referring to is in the audio section. I remeber back when I was building car audio systems that some radios only had 500 mv output at the RCA cables, some of the higher end radios started having 1,000 mv output and back in the early 90's (possibly late 80's) Alpine had the first high output radio with 4 volts output. This higher output allowed amps to be driven stronger and allow a lowering of the amps input gain control. It also allowed a better driving signal in muli amp systems.
With the lower mv output, the gains would be turned up much higher. I often found this to start the amp clipping sooner.
Another thing that I can ask is, does he have the motor running or just the key in the on position. There's a lot of amps that have unregulated power supplies and perform better at the higher DC voltage when the motor is running and the alternator charging.
These are just things that I had seen and you very well may know more about this than I do, especially with your Engineering background that you mentioned in an earlier reply here.
Thanks for all the technical info that you have supplied here.
Hi xsdbs,
I'm not familiar with the milivolt output with Apple products that you're referring to....so possibly? Could you further elaborate?
The only thing I could think of that you may be referring to is the Apple 1000mA USB power requirements, but that doesn't sound like what you are talking about.
Using non Apple USB cables have also been known to cause strange issues, so that's another possibility but dudemanbro has not mentioned anything about the particular cable he is using and since he mentioned it happened with BT streaming audio I kind of eliminated that scenario.
Since I'm not experiencing the warble sound on the same radio, we would really need to dig into the differences between our systems and setups which I believe could fall into the following categories.
1. Cable differences (I'm using a standard Apple branded USB cable).
2. Device/iOS differences. I've tested with an iPhone 3GS iOS 5.1 and an iPod Classic, as well as a USB thumb drive.
3. File Format differences on the Apple devices. I'm using 1Khz@0dBFS stereo, MP3 44.1Khz, 320kbs Joint Stereo encoded. So there's a lot of variables that could come into play here.
4. Audio settings on the Apple device side. EQ, Volume, etc.
5. Any aftermarket devices within the audio reproduction chain. Dudemanbro, mentioned he was "tuning" something. Not sure what that something may be within the audio processing chain.
6. Battery/electrical strength differences. Sine waves draw more current than typical music.
7. Radio settings. Volume, Tone, fade/balance.
I'm not familiar with the milivolt output with Apple products that you're referring to....so possibly? Could you further elaborate?
The only thing I could think of that you may be referring to is the Apple 1000mA USB power requirements, but that doesn't sound like what you are talking about.
Using non Apple USB cables have also been known to cause strange issues, so that's another possibility but dudemanbro has not mentioned anything about the particular cable he is using and since he mentioned it happened with BT streaming audio I kind of eliminated that scenario.
Since I'm not experiencing the warble sound on the same radio, we would really need to dig into the differences between our systems and setups which I believe could fall into the following categories.
1. Cable differences (I'm using a standard Apple branded USB cable).
2. Device/iOS differences. I've tested with an iPhone 3GS iOS 5.1 and an iPod Classic, as well as a USB thumb drive.
3. File Format differences on the Apple devices. I'm using 1Khz@0dBFS stereo, MP3 44.1Khz, 320kbs Joint Stereo encoded. So there's a lot of variables that could come into play here.
4. Audio settings on the Apple device side. EQ, Volume, etc.
5. Any aftermarket devices within the audio reproduction chain. Dudemanbro, mentioned he was "tuning" something. Not sure what that something may be within the audio processing chain.
6. Battery/electrical strength differences. Sine waves draw more current than typical music.
7. Radio settings. Volume, Tone, fade/balance.